Michigan Airsoft
Michigan Airsoft => Airsoft Discussion => Topic started by: luke213 on September 20, 2017, 06:18:30 PM
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So guys there was an ongoing discussion on the Facebook group surrounding ways to improve MIA. Unfortunately it was brought to light because of a particularly irritating example of poor airsoft behavior at a recent event. I'll quote my post there to explain some of my feelings.
So I'm going to throw out my 2 cents, most of you don't know me or well. Some of you do and even a few may remember me from way back in the early days on MIA. Some of you first got to meet me face to face last year when I was downstate since I'm in the UP I'm always a bit off the normal, though in the past as Mike mentioned young and disposable income I fairly often jumped in my car drove 500 miles and played the weekend games, then drove home to work. I played with Hado and the guys from ACO and allot of those old timers that are even more old timers than those of us now considered the old timers;)
What I personally see different or the largest difference, is that Facebook as a whole is casual communication. Most of the traffic has moved here from the forums, it started before the transition to the new site though. The site didn't help in the sense that it was different, but the reason was because we couldn't sell guns anymore on proboards and we didn't own the history of MIA all the posts etc. It's stuck on proboards. As it stands the community owns the content on MIA, it could easily be moved to a different platform or host without much issues which we could never do back in the day. But guys started going to facebook when you could sell guns here, which dropped MIA's numbers allot, as it tapered off, we made the move, then facebook banned gun sales, and some traffic came back.
None the less the casual nature and lack of formatting and archival of information I see as the biggest issue. On the forums you can see to a degree what someone contributed based on their post count, their rank and how long they have been a member. There isn't anything like that here to take it's place. Also older information is still available and able to be easily searched and found. Which cuts down on the constant repeat posts(it still occurs but less).
I'm also not saying facebook is bad, it isn't, but I think it's a big part of the problem with MIA as a community. It's driving a casual conversation about airsoft which isn't bad, but when the habbits from facebook end up at events it really shouldn't be a surprise. MIA in the past because of the platform and rules tended to shake those people out. Was it perfect? No not even close, there was drama and BS etc. But the mods/admins did their best to keep it going forward in the right direction. The same thing occurs here but because of the platform it's a hell of allot harder to track users and admin this. Just a minor example warning levels. Here it's a ban or nothing, no tracking etc. On the forum you can put notes on a person, so the other mods know the history and if they have been a repeat problem ban them the next time they do something purely stupid.
It's not a perfect solution, but I do feel the forums give the community more structure and continuity as well as control over the quality of the users/players than we'll ever see on facebook.
As far as the types of games, we've got 2,000 players on here even if a quarter were active then we could have full rosters at any type of event the hosts would like to host across lower Michigan every single weekend. But we've gotta get the new players involved in the community, and make it accessible but also a serious enough environment that they will take it serious. And no I don't mean serious in a bad way, but take safety seriously and respect other players etc. Maybe I'm just old, but that's the only real way I see the community going forward long term, I could certainly be wrong but it's also the reason I spearheaded getting the new forum setup, adding up everyone's old post counts etc and moving them and generally spending the time and money getting it all setup and running. I'd like to see the community thrive, and ideally at some point I'd like to be able to attend some of the larger games like I used to downstate again. Though my life will have to be a bit less busy before that is an option anytime soon.
Either way my 2 cents, short version use the forum, it doesn't take that many guys to drive the traffic and information back that direction. If you feel that's the problem then you can do something about it just simply by posting there and replying to questions etc.
For those that suggested moving the discussion here, let's do it. On top of that if it's news to you reading this, I'd love to hear your opinion as well on what we can do as a community to make it stronger and better as a whole.
Luke
EDIT: Note I'm a very small part of the overall conversation on facebook, so please don't think I'm trying to "control" it by any means. I just wanted to quote my own post there, so that guys have an idea of some of the things being discussed, and get their own ideas out there.
Also the broad strokes are the community as a whole is more fragmented and poor behavior and organization is causing some issues within the community. My theory as mentioned above is that forums are a better organization system for many reasons for our type of community. Also Facebook while it does some things very well, I think is contributing to the current issues. Myself I see facebook a bit more like a "chat" than a forum replacement, but I think everyone is open to suggestions here for ways to move forward and help the community.
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Absolutely excellent idea to bring this here Luke. I was actually going to do the same thing myself.
I definitely think we need to re-invigorate the forum and try to get more traffic over here. When I checked on the forum for the first time I was kind of shocked to see the lack of activity, especially remembering how active the old MIA forum was. As we all know, it wasn't perfect, but at least we kept it going with daily content. I feel that if enough of us make a commitment to be active on the forum, the rest will follow. When you come to a forum and see it so dead, you're not going to waste your time registering, let alone trying to be an active contributor.
On top of getting the forum going I think we need to commit to being active in the community. That means helping out at fields, attending events, and most importantly, being responsible members of the community. From what I've seen there needs to be a renewed focus on sportsmanship and fair play. Meaning if you see something, SAY SOMETHING. The people who organize these events need to know what's going on in order to address it. When the state of the game has devolved, the players need to start to police themselves as well. If you see some one without eye pro on, tell them to get it on. When you see some one overshooting, let them know why it's a bad thing. Blind firing, not calling hits, shooting too close with a hot gun, etc. All of these things need to be addressed promptly. I'm not saying we all need to be asshats about it, just that we need refocus on making things safe which will inevitably lead to more leadership and enjoyable game play.
I know I'm new to the forum, but I've been around the scene back in the day and it was a good time. My input may not be the most valuable because my current experience on the field is lacking, but I'm trying to give some suggestions on how we can fix things based on my previous experiences. If I'm in the wrong feel free to let me know. I just want to help.
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My own opinion mirrors your own, it doesn't take a whole lot of players to bring back the forums and organization as a whole that MIA has been over the years. I should note too that MIA as a whole isn't unique in the whole lower traffic over the years. I think as a whole facebook has taken up allot of traffic which in the past was on forums. However for certain though I've seen a bit of a resurgence of forum traffic in certain sectors I think because of the benefits within them. Forums aren't the magic bullet so to speak, but I do feel they might be the best way to organize airsoft as a hobby that is currently available. Facebook has some advantages, actually last week I was putting together a pro/con list between the two so that I could figure out a clear reason why and where each were better. But at the end of the day forums other than being quick really did win out in allot of ways especially with moderation of the community.
Luke
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I also like how you brought up the point of forums having a history. Organization is much better and information stays in a usable form for a long time (if not forever). This makes it SO much easier for new players and veterans alike to find relevant information without having to sift through a bunch of stuff they don't need.
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I did have one thought. Maybe make a post on the facebook page asking regular contributors to ALSO share their content in a thread here on the forum. It's not that difficult to copy/paste your text from there to here and put it in the proper forum. I would ask this myself but many of these guys don't know me yet and I don't want them to think I'm some new guy trying to stir shit up or tell them what to do. If some one with some more presence in the current community wants to do that, I think it could really help and it's really not that much work.
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I think rather than just moving everything if they come here and see what I mention in the first post that's the best. Since some guys were venting there in the other thread, as well as putting out their opinion. So if they feel like cross posting it, more than welcome but if they want to type something new or more info they are also more than welcome;)
Luke
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I figured I'd make a comment here since I made the original post that brought all of this to light.
For something of an introduction, I've been playing airsoft for MAYBE three years. As far as MIA goes I'm as green as grass compared to most folks. However in that brief time I've gone from a total newb to a rather seasoned MSW veteran and a fairly active member of RR Metro Detroit, one of the newer chapters of The Rushing Russians. My climb to said status was not pure happenstance however - ever since I bought my first LBE, an oldgen M81 Arktis chest rig, I've been hungry for the thrill of milsim. Before I finally dipped my toes into airsoft I used to spend an unhealthy amount of time watching old scoutthedoggie videos and early MSW videos from 2014. It was something that, while at the time only a dream, I knew I wanted to do someday and do regularly. The intensity of events like MSW's Crimean Crisis video series was something I thought about while at school on a pretty obsessive basis.
One of the first events I attended was one of SK's rec games at No Limits. It's a pretty bog-standard first time thing to do, but it left a fairly noticeable impression on me at the time. Everybody was very friendly, the rules were clear and concise and I had no problem making acquaintances on the field. I enjoyed myself quite a lot. Eventually I would go on to meet a few of the RR313 guys while they were still known as Spetsgruppa Snegurochka at an event at Hell's Survivors during winter, and the rest is history. The one thing I remember the most, however, is how welcoming everybody was at that game. I didn't feel alienated even though I barely knew anybody, I felt I could just play without any reservations.
I was 20 years old then, barely an adult. Now I'm 24, I'm nearing the end of my time in college, and I've got to say that even in that brief span of time I've noticed that the friendliness, the warmth from that first game I attended has more or less evaporated from most places. Most rec games that I attend, which there are few these days, there's some level of conflict, and at the small events that I do bother attending when I'm not burned out there's always a palpable tension between two teams that usually erupts in on-field shouting matches and bad behavior.
To be frank, the community that I came into when I first began playing is either dying or has completely subsumed to an entirely different atmosphere, one of which I can imagine is a lot less comfortable for new players to get into and not anywhere as enjoyable for older players to care about. Perhaps that day was a fluke and I got a good day, but what I experience now is nothing compared to that.
A lot of people likely know me for my rather vitriolic and inciting comments on the MIA Facebook group, and through my chapter's aggressive presence during play. While I will apologize for my more insidious and purposely detracting commentary, what I won't apologize for is the very scalding criticisms I've left of the community in the last year or so. To be frank, I've gotten pretty fed up with how unenthusiastic and complacent players have become with the dire situation in our state. Our "milsim" scene seemed to be solely dominated by overpriced, glorified rec games in Blacksheep and Lion Claws before they were run out of the state, leaving us with nothing because interest in more serious local events dried up in favor of events whose saving grace are their expansive AOs. Now, besides The Bastards' 24-hour milsim series which are now closed to the public, there is virtually no milsim in Michigan. 'Scenario' events, which seem to be very prevalent in the lower peninsula, are NOT milsim - they're rec games with longer objective times. They are popular, I feel, because they're arguably less demanding than milsims and Michigan players have decidedly lost their conviction in engaging themselves on the field for longer than two hours at a time.
The playerbase, to keep it short, has failed local event hosts in a remarkable fashion. Because there's no sense of community among players, there's no sense of dedication to each other, so support for local events dries up and instead goes to national-level hosts who don't care about the local community they're damaging, which in turn embitters more players like myself to stop taking part, and the cycle repeats itself.
The easiest and first solution to this problem is to fiercely support new hosts and new fields.
The reality is that newer fields like 82nd and MCA do not get the turnouts that they need to survive. MCA is open every weekend and is only $15 for registration yet when they host and promote events like Graham's MiniSim series no more than 40 tend to show up. The Bastards have hosted rec games several times at Lone Wolf Paintball and yet each time there was no more than 30 players, yet whenever SK hosts at Action Paintball there's a healthy amount of 60-80 players each time. There seems to be a predisposed bias towards "established" hosts and no interest in supporting ones that need it to establish themselves, which is why players end up going to the same fields and playing the same games every year.
When players do attend new events and new fields, they act immaturely when things don't go their way. The Bastards' Fading Light was a 24-hour milsim in the vein of MSW, meaning that there are not a chain of "objectives" to pursue for no real reason other than filling time - it's immersion-based. When it came to the NATO side being regularly defeated during key conflicts due to lack of awareness and readiness, they became embittered and a large majority of them left the event before the night even came. Some even ordered food to the AO, shattering the 'immersion' aspect entirely. At the end of the event only 10 of them remained. A number of them made very unjustifiable and weak complaints in the Facebook group, which coupled with the bad attitude and lack of preparedness on the players' behalves during the event led to Mosin closing his 24-hour series to the public. During Graham's MiniSim: Facing Worlds a number of players on the green side were incredibly hostile towards tan team when they were consistently outmaneuvered and defeated on objectives, some of which were routinely ignore calling obvious hits and breaking rules of engagement.
Overall, there needs to be a SERIOUS step up behavior-wise from the players, and there needs to be a stronger conviction from the community to support new hosts and new fields. Without those people putting themselves out there to help grow the community, it will continue to stagnate and eventually wither and die.
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So I think you're completely right in your view, however I draw a different conclusion;) I think as a whole airsoft will always been a different hobby than allot of different hobbies. In the sense that there is allot of diversity in what guys get out of the game and the level of interaction with it. In other words, you're going to have more casual players, and serious players and everything in between. I'd say most players are in the middle, just by the odds. And those players may attend a rec game, then maybe do a milsim or scenario style game but might not do a hardcore milsim style game. Or they may find it's not for them, or on the other hand they may find out it's just what they are looking for.
But the biggest thing from my perspective is that milsim isn't going to be for everyone, it's just not. I know guys who play very casually and just wouldn't do milsim. They might see the barrier of entry to a scenario game as too high. New players especially often need to feel out the waters and see if they enjoy it before committing time and money. As well they may decide they like a casual game or both.
So at least from my point of view, I think milsim is awesome but even myself at least now it's not really for me. I prefer something of a milsim lite, I get to sleep in my own bed situation. And I have a hard time dedicating two days on a weekend to anything let alone airsoft. Often I work 7 days a week in the shop and free time is with the wife and kids and it's seldom. My point in saying all of this though is be careful not to exclude players, in the sense that someday they may have the time or interest in milsim even if it's not right for them or they aren't able/ready today to go do it.
I think as a community we need to be inclusive, of all the different ways of playing airsoft. And I think the same goes for hosts, the players are there, or will be if enough guys have an interest in a particular type of game. Good or bad, if milsim doesn't take off in Michigan I don't think it will be for lack of trying and I completely understand. But if it doesn't then there isn't enough players interested, it's not right or wrong just not the way they want to play etc.
Using Pagan as an example since he was mentioned I will say Jeremy has been doing hosting a long time, and he's built a reputation as a good host. That's going to hold weight over a new host, and it should because he's put in the time, effort and money to make his name. With newer groups/hosts they are going to have to draw in players their own way and put forth the work as well. And if they are hosting games guys want to play then they'll go.
I know it's frustrating to put a ton of time, effort and money into something you love and not have it pan out. And I'm not saying milsim is that way in Michigan, I don't honestly think it is. I think it's on the upswing, but I also think it's going to take allot more time and effort before it becomes even more popular. Good or bad I just think that's where allot of guys are at the moment.
As for the whole community though I think we all need to be inclusive and keep in mind that we dress up and run around shooting each other with BB's. And at the end of the day it's a hell of allot of fun no matter how you prefer to do that. Supporting hosts with game styles you like, will drive the game in that direction. If there are enough guys to push things one way or the other it'll be what it is. Even in my area I seldom host rec style games, I do more of a milsim lite or scenario style game. Most of the other play is more of a rec or pickup game. It's not a bad thing, we both coexist just fine. I go and play pickup games because it's fun, and I host scenario's here as time permits. Works out fine and there is an absolute ton of cross over players that do exactly the same thing and play both styles/places.
So just an idea of another way to look at things, and for everyone reading this do keep in mind the majority of guys that host games don't make money doing it. They do it because they love airsoft to some degree or another. So next game go shake their hand and tell them thanks for taking time away from their life/family to do something you get to enjoy;)
Luke
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My response wasn't focused on milsim, really - I was only using those events as examples as to what's been happening in the community as of late. The overarching theme I've been following regardless of whether or not it's a rec game or a 24-hour milsim is that the new blood is not getting the support it needs and that's why things are stagnating. Of course people like Pagan deserve those good turnouts, but when they're the only people getting these turnouts despite the number of players in the community it's not healthy.
I can understand that people are not interested in milsim, and that's fine by me. I'm going to keep attending milsim events until I eventually either grow tired with airsoft or I die. My sole issue with milsim in Michigan however stems directly from the attitude that I witnessed during Fading Light, The Bastards' most recent 24-hour event. The lack of conviction and respect for the atmosphere of the game was palpable enough that Mosin made his events invite-only from now on because he can't trust the bulk of MIA players to play by the spirit of the game. It was really bad.
I have a serious feeling that Lion Claws and AMS have irreparably damaged the "milsim" brand as a whole across the country, and that's why more serious games are not respected enough and generally flop as a result.
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I think that may be part of the problem is confusion about what that style of event is like, and as mentioned could be hosts using terms incorrectly or differently. I know for certain that what MSW does, compared to Lion Claws are completely different critters. Only common in the sense guys are shooting airsoft at one another. But if I didn't know the difference and knew approximately what to expect from Lion Claws and showed up at MSW it would be a shock to the system.
I think to that end it would be great to get more information out there, or as much as possible. That way guys know the serious level of preparation and gear that will be required. And maybe even host a lightweight version in the case of Mosin/Mike giving guys a little taste to see if it's something they want to jump into a full experience of. IE host a beginner game of some sort, bring some of the elements together to insure guys are up to the full boat experience, and require guys to go through that before signing up to a full fledged event. That should insure less players leaving during the course of the game.
May not be an answer but if it were me I'd give it a shot I think and see how it shook out.
Take care!
Luke
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Yutani and Luke, you both bring up some really good points here. I'll try my best to respond to each of them.
I wholeheartedly agree that the newer crowd isn't getting the support it needs to thrive in the sport. I remember back when I started playing we got a warm welcome and generally were accepted by the other players on the field. Whether it was a rec game, an open game, or an operation as we used to call them, people were helpful, present, and accessible. The old forum also helped tremendously with this because often times you knew people before you ever hit the field. That takes a lot of the "anxiety" barrier down which can often lead to problems on the field. If you don't know anyone and your already uncomfortable and then you're getting lit up with bb's on top of it, you're going to have a bad day. That spills over into gameplay and then that attitude becomes contagious with the other players. As veterans of the sport we have to do a better job representing ourselves and also do our parts to make these newer players more comfortable. Teaching and leading can often be the most difficult job one can take on, but it's merits and results are unquestionable.
I agree that we need to support our local fields and hosts. I've been to MCA's outdoor field and the turnouts are low and the atmosphere is more of a stroll in the park rather than an excitement about putting some rounds down range. I want to see that excitement come back and see bigger amounts of people turn out for these events. I know a lot of us who are veterans don't want to put up with the bullshit, but we might have to put on our big boy pants and wade in the mud for a bit if we want to clean this shit up. It takes some real participation and some real work to fix a community as large as Michigan Airsoft is, but it CAN be done. We just need the right people to maybe sacrifice a bit and put in the work to show these guys how it should be done (how it USED to be done).
I do notice that we also have a bit of an issue with a divided community. This is nothing new, as it's always been this way. I remember being on the green team at the beginning and being pissed off because we constantly were getting demolished by the more experienced guys on the field. To fix this I got 3 color desert BDU's and never looked back, lol. Honestly it's how the progression goes most of the time. However, that doesn't mean we have to be arrogant assholes or look down on people for being new. Look into what you can do to make the experience better for EVERYONE. Not just the new guys and not just yourself or your team. You can talk to even organizers about evening up the teams, try switching up sides, suggest different game styles, work with the new guys, etc. If you start to fix the issues while they are still solvable, you avoid getting to huge blowouts that end up causing all kinds of chaos when it boils over.
Lastly I'd just like to say that we can't forget what all this is about. It's a bunch of people running around playing dress up, shooting bb's at each other. Everyone is going to do things their own way and no two folks are going to want the exact same thing out of the experience. We can't blame players or even hosts for issues that are simply out of their control. When we start throwing around blame on venues, player base, or hosts, it ends up being a bitchfest to no where. Instead we need to address the CORE of the issues like we are with discussions such as this. It needs to be an overall culture change if we want to make airsoft great again. From the veterans, to the teams, the event venues and hosts, and the new guys coming down the pipes. All of us need to make an honest and meaningful effort.
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I think at the end of the day the biggest thing we all as a community need to do is reach out to a degree to players and be accepting of what other guys do for fun within the hobby. Everyone that plays airsoft gets different things from it and enjoys it differently.
And I think to that end it's going to require boots on the ground so to speak at events getting to know guys and trying to get guys involved in the community as a whole.
Also no matter where the community ends up(while I do think there is a strong case for forums, especially because of search and indexing). I think we need to do more things to involve the community. One suggestion I made before was AAR's after action reports. Basically a BS session about a game or a particular kill in the game. But those types of things are not only fun, but they engage guys who weren't even at the game. And if other guys see that a bunch of guys had fun they wonder what they missed out on and may make more of an effort to go to the next game.
To be honest we're all in the same boat to a degree. As players you want to go to a game with the right amount of players. If you design a game for 50 guys and 10 show up, it's hard to make that a good game. The hosts need the players as do the fields to drive the financial reasons for doing airsoft. But at the end of the day we all need players no matter their team, and the best way to keep players and by them enjoying themselves playing the game.
Luke
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I think it's important to provide some context about the MiA community of the past to better understand how we've gotten to where we are today.
First, back in the 2008-2012 time period, the community was smaller and tighter knit.
Second, the community had a central meeting place - the old Proboards forum.
Third, due to the size of the community, games were structured much differently than today with an emphasis on, at the very least, scenario style play.
So how did we arrive at the fragmented, rec-game focused community we have today?
The most significant contributing factor, in my opinion, was a fairly large collapse in the number of fields available for large games.
In 2017, Michigan community (i.e. not national level) scenario or milsim events were held at, as I recall, two fields. Operation Fading Light was held at Hole in the Wall Paintball in Bangor and The Throwdown was held at Traverse City Paintball in Copemish.
These were, again as I recall, the two largest events in Michigan in 2017 with a focus on a longer, more complex style of play.
In the past, large events were held at the following fields
WMI/SABR/Youngs - GR - NO LONGER ACTIVE
SFOD - Davison - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Hell Survivors - Pinckney - NO LONGER ACTIVE due to field owner issues
Futureball - Whitmore Lake - NO LONGER ACTIVE due to field owner issues
Phoenix North/Haunted Hay Ride - Lenox - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Chaos Paintball - Charlotte - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Splatmandu - Three Rivers - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Matrix Airsoft - Ypsilanti/Other places - NO LONGER ACTIVE (?)
Area 51 Paintball - Mancelona - NO LONGER ACTIVE
The Swamp - West Branch - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Hole in the Wall Paintball - Bangor - ACTIVE
Action Paintball/No Limits - Taylor - ACTIVE
TCP - Copemish - ACTIVE
So, as demonstrated above, many large fields which were once used to host larger events are no longer available due to a variety of factors.
Simultaneously, as bigger fields were closing down or becoming unavailable, smaller, more rec-focused fields were popping up. I'm not much of a CQB/Indoor player, so any list of these fields I could put out would be incomplete, but suffice to say that there have been a LOT of these little fields. Generally, they would pop up for a year or two and then change names, move locations or close. MCA Indoor is just one in a long line of smaller, rec focused CQB type places that included others like Farmington CQB, Phoenix Tactical, Eastside and Tango Down. In addition, places like Matrix, MCA Outdoor, Toxic and Action Paintball provided players with rec games on a fairly regular basis.
Back when I started playing in 2006 all the way through to around the 2010 period, the community was so small that people had to travel to games in order to play. There really were no rec game facilities providing weekly games as there are now. Big games were hosted monthly or every other month at big fields across the state. One month a big game might be at Hell Survivors and the next month it could be at Bangor. In the winter months, Chaos Paintball in Charlotte regularly hosted a big scenario event.
The point here is that there were no weekly rec game opportunities for players to get their airsoft "fix." You either drove to several big fields throughout the season or you had to wait until a big game came to your area.
Today we have tons of opportunities for people to play rec type games and, in my opinion, all of the energy and hype gets blown on those events rather than people focusing on attending big events - which are not even available anymore due to the lack of big fields we've been experiencing.
Bigger places like Dirty Paintball/MCA Outdoor or 82nd Airborne have a hard time competing in an environment where games are being offered every weekend at several sites within an hours drive.
I know this is a long post, so I'll just wrap up here.
Bottomline: if you want to encourage bigger games, scenario games, milsim games, you've got to encourage people to get away from the weekly rec game addiction and educate them to appreciate a more complex, higher level of play. In addition, you've also got to create partnerships with the existing fields and maintain those relationships. Hell Survivors and Futureball have solid facilities, but no one wants to play there due to staff issues that could probably be corrected with some dialogue. Lastly, we've got to encourage an ethos of educating and taking new players under the wings of veteran players - not driving new players away with elitism, vitriol or "my team shits on your team" nonsense.
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The only thing I would question there is the size of the community, I don't have the numbers and I wasn't back yet during that 2008ish time frame. But from what I've seen in the member numbers etc, it looks like the community as a whole may have been bigger back then than it is today combining forum numbers along with facebook. That of course doesn't include more break off groups etc on facebook which could easily account for the different feel of the community.
I do agree though that the loss of the fields mentioned certainly effected MIA and airsoft within Michigan. And not to degrade the conversation into MSW/LC discussion. But I think at the end of the day that whole incident and following controversy hurt airsoft as a whole. It drove further division I think between players and who they were supporting by attending games. And I completely understand the guys who picked one side or the other, but I think putting players in a position where they have to pick is going to hurt both sides and isn't going to help airsoft grow as a hobby. But time frame wise that also occurred during this same stretch of decline and I do think that played a role. It came at a bad time to have a big issue within the community, and it was also an issue earlier with Blacksheep as well and that whole controversy.
The one place I'm not sure I agree maybe I do but I'm torn is on REC games. I think of REC and scenario games as two independent things. Within a very small community of players sure they will draw guys from one to the other, particularly I think REC players will be less likely to go to a scenario game if they are just used to REC games. But I don't think it goes the other direction, if you typically play scenario games and you've got the choice between that and REC I think most guys will go scenario. I do think REC games can give a good introduction to more serious play, and sometimes be used for another step of scenario or milisim lite types of games to let guys decide if they would like to take it to the next step.
I think another thing though with milsim/scenario/anything more in depth than a rec game is making sure to educate the community about the game itself and it's requirements. Just as an example and not a great one but an example none the less. When I went down to Irene first large scale game I've been to, first time anything more than a local game since I've been back. I researched, posted, asked questions and generally tried to find any information I could to be prepared. I also then passed all that to my guys I was bringing with so we were all up to speed. We still missed some things, and we still could have done better. That wasn't a crazy intense game as far as what was needed etc, but the information was way harder to find than I think is practical. I'm a research junkie, and if it weren't for me I don't honestly think most of my guys would have found allot of the minor stuff needed etc. Since there is also variation in the hosts, that requires different gear etc. That's something I think could really be improved with allot of hosts of more in depth games. Insure the players know exactly what to bring and what is needed for the game, otherwise some guys will just think it's too difficult to figure out and may not attend when otherwise they could. And I can't speak for all games, but I have researched games other than Lion Claws over the years and run into some of the same headaches.
So I think getting that information out there and easy to process for new players to that particular host/series/events, would be a big help to the community as well as drawing in new players to those games. Possibly even as simple as youtube videos explaining rules and such(which to their credit LC did do some of, but it was far too few, and too little information).
That though at least from my perspective would be a huge help to new players of that particular host, especially if they don't have players near them to be able to bounce questions off of. As well when you ask some of those questions you get replies like "oh that doesn't really matter". And while that may be true, maybe they don't enforce that rule in particular but it's good to know the "goal" rather than the accepted standard of play so to speak. And as it stands often times it's very confusing for most players who haven't attended that sort of event in the past to figure out the details and get all their ducks in a row before showing up to play.
Luke
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I think it's important to provide some context about the MiA community of the past to better understand how we've gotten to where we are today.
First, back in the 2008-2012 time period, the community was smaller and tighter knit.
Second, the community had a central meeting place - the old Proboards forum.
Third, due to the size of the community, games were structured much differently than today with an emphasis on, at the very least, scenario style play.
So how did we arrive at the fragmented, rec-game focused community we have today?
The most significant contributing factor, in my opinion, was a fairly large collapse in the number of fields available for large games.
In 2017, Michigan community (i.e. not national level) scenario or milsim events were held at, as I recall, two fields. Operation Fading Light was held at Hole in the Wall Paintball in Bangor and The Throwdown was held at Traverse City Paintball in Copemish.
These were, again as I recall, the two largest events in Michigan in 2017 with a focus on a longer, more complex style of play.
In the past, large events were held at the following fields
WMI/SABR/Youngs - GR - NO LONGER ACTIVE
SFOD - Davison - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Hell Survivors - Pinckney - NO LONGER ACTIVE due to field owner issues
Futureball - Whitmore Lake - NO LONGER ACTIVE due to field owner issues
Phoenix North/Haunted Hay Ride - Lenox - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Chaos Paintball - Charlotte - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Splatmandu - Three Rivers - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Matrix Airsoft - Ypsilanti/Other places - NO LONGER ACTIVE (?)
Area 51 Paintball - Mancelona - NO LONGER ACTIVE
The Swamp - West Branch - NO LONGER ACTIVE
Hole in the Wall Paintball - Bangor - ACTIVE
Action Paintball/No Limits - Taylor - ACTIVE
TCP - Copemish - ACTIVE
So, as demonstrated above, many large fields which were once used to host larger events are no longer available due to a variety of factors.
Simultaneously, as bigger fields were closing down or becoming unavailable, smaller, more rec-focused fields were popping up. I'm not much of a CQB/Indoor player, so any list of these fields I could put out would be incomplete, but suffice to say that there have been a LOT of these little fields. Generally, they would pop up for a year or two and then change names, move locations or close. MCA Indoor is just one in a long line of smaller, rec focused CQB type places that included others like Farmington CQB, Phoenix Tactical, Eastside and Tango Down. In addition, places like Matrix, MCA Outdoor, Toxic and Action Paintball provided players with rec games on a fairly regular basis.
Back when I started playing in 2006 all the way through to around the 2010 period, the community was so small that people had to travel to games in order to play. There really were no rec game facilities providing weekly games as there are now. Big games were hosted monthly or every other month at big fields across the state. One month a big game might be at Hell Survivors and the next month it could be at Bangor. In the winter months, Chaos Paintball in Charlotte regularly hosted a big scenario event.
The point here is that there were no weekly rec game opportunities for players to get their airsoft "fix." You either drove to several big fields throughout the season or you had to wait until a big game came to your area.
Today we have tons of opportunities for people to play rec type games and, in my opinion, all of the energy and hype gets blown on those events rather than people focusing on attending big events - which are not even available anymore due to the lack of big fields we've been experiencing.
Bigger places like Dirty Paintball/MCA Outdoor or 82nd Airborne have a hard time competing in an environment where games are being offered every weekend at several sites within an hours drive.
I know this is a long post, so I'll just wrap up here.
Bottomline: if you want to encourage bigger games, scenario games, milsim games, you've got to encourage people to get away from the weekly rec game addiction and educate them to appreciate a more complex, higher level of play. In addition, you've also got to create partnerships with the existing fields and maintain those relationships. Hell Survivors and Futureball have solid facilities, but no one wants to play there due to staff issues that could probably be corrected with some dialogue. Lastly, we've got to encourage an ethos of educating and taking new players under the wings of veteran players - not driving new players away with elitism, vitriol or "my team shits on your team" nonsense.
The only thing I would question there is the size of the community, I don't have the numbers and I wasn't back yet during that 2008ish time frame. But from what I've seen in the member numbers etc, it looks like the community as a whole may have been bigger back then than it is today combining forum numbers along with facebook. That of course doesn't include more break off groups etc on facebook which could easily account for the different feel of the community.
I do agree though that the loss of the fields mentioned certainly effected MIA and airsoft within Michigan. And not to degrade the conversation into MSW/LC discussion. But I think at the end of the day that whole incident and following controversy hurt airsoft as a whole. It drove further division I think between players and who they were supporting by attending games. And I completely understand the guys who picked one side or the other, but I think putting players in a position where they have to pick is going to hurt both sides and isn't going to help airsoft grow as a hobby. But time frame wise that also occurred during this same stretch of decline and I do think that played a role. It came at a bad time to have a big issue within the community, and it was also an issue earlier with Blacksheep as well and that whole controversy.
The one place I'm not sure I agree maybe I do but I'm torn is on REC games. I think of REC and scenario games as two independent things. Within a very small community of players sure they will draw guys from one to the other, particularly I think REC players will be less likely to go to a scenario game if they are just used to REC games. But I don't think it goes the other direction, if you typically play scenario games and you've got the choice between that and REC I think most guys will go scenario. I do think REC games can give a good introduction to more serious play, and sometimes be used for another step of scenario or milisim lite types of games to let guys decide if they would like to take it to the next step.
I think another thing though with milsim/scenario/anything more in depth than a rec game is making sure to educate the community about the game itself and it's requirements. Just as an example and not a great one but an example none the less. When I went down to Irene first large scale game I've been to, first time anything more than a local game since I've been back. I researched, posted, asked questions and generally tried to find any information I could to be prepared. I also then passed all that to my guys I was bringing with so we were all up to speed. We still missed some things, and we still could have done better. That wasn't a crazy intense game as far as what was needed etc, but the information was way harder to find than I think is practical. I'm a research junkie, and if it weren't for me I don't honestly think most of my guys would have found allot of the minor stuff needed etc. Since there is also variation in the hosts, that requires different gear etc. That's something I think could really be improved with allot of hosts of more in depth games. Insure the players know exactly what to bring and what is needed for the game, otherwise some guys will just think it's too difficult to figure out and may not attend when otherwise they could. And I can't speak for all games, but I have researched games other than Lion Claws over the years and run into some of the same headaches.
So I think getting that information out there and easy to process for new players to that particular host/series/events, would be a big help to the community as well as drawing in new players to those games. Possibly even as simple as youtube videos explaining rules and such(which to their credit LC did do some of, but it was far too few, and too little information).
That though at least from my perspective would be a huge help to new players of that particular host, especially if they don't have players near them to be able to bounce questions off of. As well when you ask some of those questions you get replies like "oh that doesn't really matter". And while that may be true, maybe they don't enforce that rule in particular but it's good to know the "goal" rather than the accepted standard of play so to speak. And as it stands often times it's very confusing for most players who haven't attended that sort of event in the past to figure out the details and get all their ducks in a row before showing up to play.
Luke
I agree with you both on several different areas. You guys hit the nail on the head pretty well, I'll elaborate further:
1) The dissolution of the older (MiA Proboards) forum caused a "virtual" floor to drop out of the community. We can still access the old forum for information, but we cannot post nor can any new members join. This furthermore prompted the creation of the new (miairsoft.org) forum; thanks Luke!
More or less, we had to start not quite from zero, but decently close if you understand my meaning. There were several of us that already had knew each other both on and off the field in the sport so when recreating it, we had a bit of player base to start with.
2) Community fragmentation has not helped the process. I believe the facebook group was created before the downfall of the old Proboards forum, however if memory serves me right it was around for a few years beforehand (just looked, it's been around since at least 2007). We have 1,018 members here on the forum and 2,434 members in the facebook group. A bit skewed...
However there is now: West Michigan Airsoft, Michana Airsoft Coaltion, West Michigan Airsoft Game Finder, and I believe Kalamazoo Airsoft has a group as well... Anyone else see the problem here? Because I know for a fact from the posts and members you see that there are many people in all of the groups that are not a member of another Michigan related group.
Even if each split off group only has 500 members, that's a huge section of the playing population in Michigan that is "disconnected" from other people, events, and information because of this. I'm not going to say it's the only thing, but it's certainly not helping the matter at all...
3) As Gimpalong said, there was a large amount of fields that are no longer hosting airsoft events for various reasons; whether it be economic, disagreements, or the place simply closed. At about the same time several places began hosting recreational style games, so the market began to shift slightly.
The first event I attended was Operation: Red Out hosted at Futureball in 2006 and my first public, hosted event with Hole in the Wall Paintball was in October of 2006. Damn near none of the locations that were around then are around now.
From the prospective of an event host, I know that Bangor, Michigan is far from a major population center (Kalamazoo/Portage) but event turnouts across the board have dropped dramatically over the years. I live in the Portage area and work part-time at the paintball field on the weekends, it's not that far. As was said above, sometimes you just gotta drive...
Over on my end, it's like pulling teeth to get people to sign-up for a scenario event, even if no payment is required until the day of the game. People rarely ask questions, or post anything. People over the last few years have simply just shown up at event registration, which is fine. But people like to see the numbers and people that are attending a game, I have told people all summer long to sign up for this event or that event. Just clicking the "Attend" button on a facebook event post just isn't good enough guys...
The rise in recreational style games over the years can probably be attributed to the cost and time of operating a field. Property size, infrastructure (existing or planned), capital and sheer amount of time involved with all of it can play a key factor for game style and size. You can't cram 100 people on 5 acres... Sometimes you need more than a tree to hide behind... And all of that takes time, labor, and money.
Depending on who owns the land, they might not want any structures or bunkers on it at all... I started playing on the 10 acres my grandparents own with my friends, I always assumed we shouldn't construct anything and we never did. Prohibitive in one regard, common sense in another.
I've began hosting a recreational game every Sunday to keep pace with other local fields doing the same thing. If you have 50 players total, spread across five different fields; everyone gets 10... And that's what it's been all summer long. We have some dedicated players that drive from the Grand Rapids and Holland area, but practically none from Kalamazoo; I find that strange considering proximity.
4) The individual tastes of the player will be reflected in the style of games they choose to play or host...
- Some people want a laid back, relaxed, chill day of airsoft; Recreational game.
- Some people want a slightly more rigid set of rules with more structure; Scenario, Hybrid, or older style Milsim games.
- Some people want a very rigid, strict, and highly regulated/structured game; Current Milsim events.
I fall into the 1st to 2nd category. Scenario, Hybrid, or the older Milsim games we used to have were fun. Simply put, if I wanted to stay up for 20 hours playing and then do a night watch for 4 hours, I would have joined the military... It's just not the style of airsoft that I like to play.
It's not my type of game to play nor host personally. I open Hole in the Wall Paintball up to outside hosts that want to use our location for whatever type of event they want to hold, but it's not something I plan on hosting myself.
I like games with some structure (uniform regulations, weapon type-ammunition regulations, etc), but I also keep in mind you see a broad range of airsofters at events from actual combat veterans to the high school kid. And it's reflected in the styles of events I host. Operation: Flash Fire/Firestorm would be a great example. Somewhat structured but not intimidating to newer players.
My point with this whole thing is all locations need to be inclusive of all players, game tastes, and styles of play. Keep in mind that everyone needs to start somewhere, we all did.
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This is a great post and I think it really sums up a lot of the issues that the community is or has been experiencing.
It's not just one factor - it's many different factors.
Social media fragmentation, regionalism, competition between fields, player preferences, demographics, etc.
As such, there's no one size fits all solution. I think we've been really focused on providing a technological solution to the issue of having no central meeting place for the community - a focus on returning players to the forum or combating fragmentation in some way. But that only addresses one part of the issue.
It's great to have conversations identifying the issues that we face. And we've had a lot of these conversations. But at some point a set of goals, road map or general plan is probably going to be required which then begs the question - who is actually in a position to push the community in one direction or another?
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Honestly I think the only guys with any power so to speak are the hosts. They dictate where and when games are posted and where they are hosted. In essence without them the community as a whole would not exist. Of course other guys would start hosting but then they are driving that part.
I think to start its best to get all the information hashed out then figure out a plan of attack so to speak on how to accomplish at least some of the goals and keep things moving forward.
Take care
Luke
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
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I don't know if that's entirely true though. The hosts will only do what the player base wants them to do in that regard. When you want to plan a scenario or I suppose we could call it a "light milsim" and if no players say they are attending a scenario event, it's hard to do one. And can discouraging for others when planning future ones.
At least in my prospective as a host for this part, I've attached a map of the standard playing area at Hole In The Wall Paintball that I've used. I'm considering upgrading it for events in the future as well.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/d8NEqb/13599562_10209423129886395_1659002842_n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d8NEqb)
free image hoster for websites (https://imgbb.com/)
When I'm planning a scenario event, maybe one objective will have two parts: "Your primary mission is to assault and raid your enemy's base and transport anything found to your base."
But you also should guard your own team's base, because what is the enemy team doing? Their objective might be to raid your base. Or perhaps a squad of them come across yours and find it abadonded...
If no one signs up ahead of time for planning (numbers) or shows up, this is hard to pull off.
But this also requires preset/pre-decided teams/factions ahead of time. So you have to divide people some how, the most common is to use uniform (not gear) colors or armbands. I don't like armbands personally.
Split people into 2-3 teams based on uniform colors, the most common is to use a green vs. tan split.
If you make the uniform requirements too strict, people may not be able to attend or may not want to attend. So you can't plan an event with only one team, so if know one shows up or signs up ahead of time, you can't plan/run one.
In terms of hosting, simply put for myself the playing area is too large for complex obejectives with too few people or an imbalance in player numbers.
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Teams were a huge part of what kept the community close. Getting back to that mentality will be the best for the community.
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What I'm getting at mostly as far as hosts is where they post IE do they manage their posts here on the forum, on facebook or both. I guess what I'm saying is that one way that things could be done and I'm not saying this is the best idea etc, just snowballing. If hosts as a whole posted events on Facebook, then disabled comments and linked to the forum. Then they could manage who was coming etc via the forums and organize teams etc in one location rather than having to manage two places.
Again not saying that's the right or wrong way to handle it, but if all the hosts decided to use the forums as their primary organization for events then players would pretty much have to go where the hosts go.
I think though that's not probably the best way to handle it, but that's the first example of what I meant that popped into my mind. But the event hosts have control over where they post their events be it facebook or forums etc. So in that sense they can to a degree control the userbase in a manner that no one else involved can do, because that information is required to be able to attend those events.
On the team selection etc completely agree, in my hosting the hardest thing is planning and balancing teams. And like you I absolutely hate arm bands and avoid them whenever possible. I don't think that MIA as a whole is going to answer that question however I do have a suggestion of something you can try that I've been doing the last maybe year or two now on my own events. What I do rather than green vs. tan is camo vs. civilian. I design the scenario such that it's some sort of military force against either a militia or civilian team of some sort. By doing that I eliminate camo issues with which camo is allowed, basically if it's a pattern it's allowed on the camo team. If it's not a pattern it's allowed on the civy team, so basically anyone alive has clothing that is capable of being the civy side of things. So you assign or have guys sign up, split the teams and a short bit before the game check the numbers and players and see if you need to bump some guys. Also pick some players that you know and are good normal players and tell them to bring both camo and civy to the game. That way day of you can bounce them to balance the teams in a pinch. If you don't have enough guys to bounce and balance the team you can then plan a little leeway into the scenario in the form of respawns etc to balance the teams a bit more as well.
And again not that I know more than anyone, I certainly don't. But with my semi casual player base up here along with allot of newer players without allot of gear. That split of camo vs. civilian clothes means I can always get guys on both teams and make up a good game even with guys who only own a gun and don't have any camo or gear. Should also be noted that of course like usual you'll want to balance skill to a certain degree, and typically out here there is a pretty even split once I get done and makes for a fairly even game.
Take care!
Luke
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Glad to see this post gaining some more traction! This is exactly what we need to do if we want to improve things.
Canto I don't think I could have said things any better myself. You hit it out of the park with your reply.
I agree that there are many issues with the airsoft scene here in Michigan. The community needs to rebuild and regrow. As Canto said, most likely from the ground up. I think that responsibility falls not only on the hosts and organizers as Luke has said, but ALSO on the veteran player base. We've got to put aside our differences and just make airsoft enjoyable for EVERYONE who wants to play. Obviously you can't cater to every individual, but you can create an overall welcoming and friendly atmosphere. You can organize effectively. You can work with others to bring about positive changes and that all translates into better airsoft for all involved.
Like others have said, I don't know who can take up the mantle and run with this. Maybe it doesn't have to be an individual, but all of us just making a difference in whatever way we can. I've tried to help Luke out a bit with getting people to check out the forums and trying to get some discussion going on the Facebook page about the state of airsoft in Michigan. It's my small way of helping in a way which I can. I think if we get enough people doing that, we can move in the right direction.
Edit: One thing I really think we need to look at is the fragmentation or exclusiveness seen on the field. I understand that you want to run with your team and most likely hang out with them outside of the game. However look for lone players or people who look new and at least engage them in a conversation. I saw a good example of this at the 82nd rec game a week ago. A new player was really excited about a kill he got and tried to talk to a more veteran player about it. The veteran player shrugged it off like it was nothing and continued to walk away. This is just an example of what could have been a good experience that turned into a missed opportunity. Again, we gotta do some work if we want to get there.
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So I'll give my two cents on this all;
My name is Colin Redner, I'm the president of AAMTU way up here in Houghton. I’ve met quite a few of you, whether at OP Lion Claws, Fading Light, or on UP Airsoft. I suppose my best link to all this is my own experience as an event organizer; we run two OPs each year that we must structure to meet the epitome of the MI playerbase. We have the perfect playerbase, with players of all skill levels and experiences from across the Midwest. The issue is, our playerbase is limited by the size of the UP in general; as such, we structure our Ops to meet all player varieties.
For example, to follow up on Lucas’s comment on teams we will be offering FOUR teams, and it solves allot of the issues I see many of you discussing. For example, for our Op coming up in October, we have the following teams: US/NATO (Tan Camo), RU/CN (Green-base camo), Contractor (Tan plainclothes with black shirt/polo), and civilian (normal civilian clothes).
The biggest issue this fixes is uniform requirements; all players (MilSim West players to 2nd-time players) can find their place in a team, with like-skilled players and tasks. I can send the two camo teams to engage in higher-skill firefights (long-range, forest, flanking, etc.), the two newer teams to fight in easier firefights (CQB areas, buildings, etc.), and then mix them all in the medium-skill areas. This lets everyone have the opportunity to play with and against players of the same skill, without sectioning them out.
The other issue this solves is of team-balance. In 2-team Ops, one will always be more skilled than the other (Green > multicam, multicam > civilians, generally). By sectioning into four teams, it allows me to dynamically modify team balances. For example, lets say Green and Civilian are allied at the beginning of the game, versus the allied Tan and Contractor. If Tan is doing too well, Green “buys out” the contractors, and turns the tide of the game while maintaining the storyline. I still usually maintain an Opfor vs Blufor pattern, but I can modify who is on what team with a simple radio call.
EDIT: As for social media, we exist mostly locally, although have been branching out on FB recently; It's simply a location that allot of our playerbase is already familiar with. We will hopefully be getting more involved on here in the near future.
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A solution to the uniform-skill level problem is to lump civilian clothing (street clothes) into an already existing category, in a 2-3 team game. It also allows newer players that might not have a full uniform a chance to play a larger game.
Multicam is kind of a pain in the ass to classify. Too many people have it or use it, so much so it may skew a whole faction for an event. It's not quite green and it's not quite tan. It's a great uniform and an effective one (Yes, I even have some) for our climate. But a bit of a pain.
A typical green vs. tan breakdown could be:
Green: M81 Woodland, MARPAT, Woodland DPM, Tiger Stripe, OD Green, and Alpenflage.
Tan: Three Color Desert, Six Color Desert, Arid MARPAT, ACU, ABU, Black, Urban, and Contractor.
You could put street clothing and multicam on either faction really.
Copper River, PM sent.
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Well, by splitting up the playerbase into the 4 separate teams, it unlocks that dynamic ability to morph the battlefield as a game progresses. It is a yet unproven idea, but on paper is seems very reasonable to me. As well, the 4 teams (other than the issue with multiglam = tan or =green) seem very distinct from each other. I realize this isn't the conventional way of thinking about airsoft events, but I hope that by the end of the month I'll be able to tell you whether it worked.
I do not plan on making those team-changing movements much or at all, but I simply am leaving it unlocked for the possible fix for an uneven team balance. If the teams are balanced, then the civilians will be allied with green the whole day, and the contractors will be allied with tan the whole day. It's just an extra method of balance.
As a correction; I did not intend to be accusatory; my predecessor painted MIA as something it is not, and I am merely trying to reconnect AAMTU with MIA. I believe your regulations are fair and reasonable, we have simply modified them to better meet our needs.
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My concern with the 4 teams thing is that everytime I've seen anything like that done it leads to confusion on the player side of who's friend or foe, which is difficult in general in the field to tell sometimes. Which increases friendly fire which also will depend on the players. Just as an example one of the last games at STFU(Skandia group), they had a faction like that, that could be hired, but in the start of the game they were supposed to be neutral. Well they took me hostage of sorts, which I drew my glock and put it under Kris' chin and we had a mexican standoff between two of my guys and the "neutral" contractor etc team. Everyone got shot, but being the team leader my first command after spawning was shoot on sight for anyone on that team until further notice. So each time we got near them whether they were trying to communicate or otherwise we just steamrolled them and did our objective. Basically in my view not far off of what would typically occur in a real life scenario because if they killed two of your force immediately. Well they are hostile and no longer going to be allowed to have that opportunity again. Later after much negotiation I did hire them to hit a gun truck. But let me tell ya the negotiations were they were completely unarmed, and all of my guys had guns on them the entire time. Probably didn't help that I showed up that day with a migraine and wasn't in the mood to deal with that sort of craziness;) But that's how it shook out that time, and it didn't go as planned. Not saying it won't for you guys it might and hopefully pending I can swing it with two weekends back to back I'm going to come up and see;)
My own two cents though any sort of floating team assortment where allies vary is going to cause more confusion than necessary, especially without a long scenario with allot of players. I'll say it may be possible or workable in something like a 3 day game, where the allies don't change often or at setup portions of the story line. Not sure, but I'm leery based on what I've seen in the past and how common friendly fire tends to be in general;)
Luke
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I've done a 3 faction game before, using the standard green-tan breakdown. I seperated all the uniforms that were not green or tan into the 3rd team (ACU, ABU, Urban, Contractor, etc) and put multicam with tan since so many people have it. I used it before with one of the first War on Drugs events I did a few years back; two drug cartels and a counter narcotics unit. For Hole in the Wall at least it worked well, gave each of the teams their own ridge (North, South, Southeast/Heartbreak) and everyone had their own base and defendable area.
Either way, the point of the uniforms debate is accessability. Make the requirements too strict and not enough people come or people might be turned away. Too loose and people will be confused and there won't be much of a game.
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This thread has sort of drifted a little bit, but I'll throw my thoughts out there too.
After playing at MCA this past weekend, and having played at several events in the metro area over the summer I also have noticed a change in the player base.
1. There is a new generation of airsofters: This is fantastic! This means our sport is growing! This new player base is growing around the aforementioned casual walk on venues like MCA. A lot of these young players have never even attended an organized rec game or scenario, they are fairly uninvolved in the community, they may be on Facebook, but they're not here.
2. Airsoft Etiquette is disappearing: There is an increasing level of ignorance/arrogance amongst the newest generation. I believe to some extent, this is where the unfriendliness is coming from, this is why disagreements breakout between teams. There is some tribal knowledge that hasn't spread to the new generation. Things as simple as:
> Don't call out other players, because you think they're cheating; i.e. "CALL YOUR HITS A$$HOLE!" --Just tell a referee.
> Proper firearms handling practices.
> Engagement rules, playing safe, being considerate of other people
> "Ye Olde Good Sportsmanship"
3. New players are learning Airsoft from places other than the MIA community. Some of these new places choose to NOT adopt our practices and rules. Lets face it; a lot of work went into the MIA Standards, a lot of though and trial and error, its tried and true at this point. While its every business owner's right to run their business how they see fit, it doesn't help the sense of community and continuity that MIA has set out to establish.
4. Us vs Them. The old guard versus the new. Without calling out anyone, there is definitely tension between some field owners and the MIA community. Its been observed on multiple occasions on the Facebook group. I think this coincides with some of what we see in the above bullet points. Rather than working together its driving a wedge between these entities. Lets face it, some of these owners could care less. They've got this new generation of young players eating out of their hands. Who cares if it turns off some of us "Old Guys".
5. The Old Guard, or what is left of it, has moved on to the next stages of life. Myself, I've got a career, wife, baby, mortgage, etc. Most of "us" have that now. Its okay, but it means we only get out once or twice a month (sometimes less). Its hard to lead the charge with so many things vying for attention, I don't think I need to explain any further.
(I must note however, I definitely have more money to allocate to hobbies now, but Time =/= Money.)
The community would benefit from outreach; new players need to be welcomed in. While its nice to reminisce about the "Old Days" or look inward for solutions, new players need to engage, they need to know we are here, and why.
I know this is easier said than done.
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I think the MiA community has always been mis-understood by outsiders. Many people still think that MiA is a team or a select group rather than a community open to everyone in the State of Michigan. To be fair to that attitude, MiA insiders haven't always been willing to educate and guide; MiA has, in the past, been clique-ish and somewhat elitist. A lot of MiA regulars are also apt to attack field owners and hosts pretty harshly rather than engage and try to correct bad behavior. Take a look at Futureball, for example. That field has gotten a terrible reputation in recent years - part deservedly and part undeservedly. To the point where people say "yeah, don't go to that field" whenever it comes up. The same thing could be said of Hell Survivors but for different reasons - the owners always seem to screw over event hosts.
A big difference between today and past years is that there are WAY more venues operated for airsoft. In the past, event hosts (like Team RAGE, the Hellfish, TFI, BTR, etc) would basically rent out a field for use. So someone would approach the management at Futureball or at Hell Survivors and schedule a date for a big event, take pre-payments, pay the field and then host the big event. The host or the host's team would coordinate the game play, act as referees, etc. The field itself was basically getting paid to unlock the gates and provide access to the land - nothing more.
Today, that model does not necessarily hold true. Many fields, including both Futureball and Hell Survivors, have started to host their own weekly/monthly rec events. TC Paintball in my neck of the woods does the same thing - they publish a schedule of airsoft rec play events for the entire year and personnel from the field run everything. For major events, however, TC Paintball still turns to a local player to set up, promote and run the scenario event that they host a few times a year. So that's sort of a hybrid model.
The point here is that, in many places, there's been a shift away from an actual airsofter planning an event and coordinating with a field to a situation where a field is trying to capitalize on the availability of airsofters. So a paintball field, while their bread and butter will always be paintball, also wants to tap into the airsoft market for some extra cash. The result is a lot of little rec games, but no incentive to host anything bigger.
So, if a major goal is to have more "big games," scenario or milsim style events, then airsofters need to start picking up the mantle to host by engaging with field owners. This may be a opportunity for some of the new teams in the state (looking at you RR313) to get out and start to host events themselves.
My suggestion would be to get some buy in from three or four event hosts (for example, Mosin of the Bastards @Mosin , Pagan of the Suicide Kings @Pagan , Yutanti of RR313 @Yutani-313 , Canton of FAH @Canto , Deputy from Traverse City @deputy865 ) to put together an event series. This event series would host a spring event, a summer event and a fall event at three separate fields in different parts of the state. The members of these groups could then hype up these events, provide additional educational information to help newer players prepare, etc, etc. These events would serve to initiate newer players into the "big game"/scenario style of play and get them ready to participate in bigger national level events or more serious milsim events like Operation Ambient/Fading Light or MSW. As Yutanti pointed out above, a lot of players are simply unprepared for bigger events, but who can blame them? A lot of these players have never had the opportunity to do anything beyond rec play - so they're still learning. Since Blacksheep and LC are basically no longer active in MI (for various reasons we don't need to get into) a lot of these new players never get an opportunity to have a "big game" experience that could contribute to them learning the "big game" ropes.
4. Us vs Them. The old guard versus the new. Without calling out anyone, there is definitely tension between some field owners and the MIA community.
And, you know, field hosts are entitled to do whatever they want. MiA was never really intended to sanction fields or to stop hosts from setting their own rules. It's better to have dialogue with fields rather than tear them down. Again, speaking for my neck of the woods, the guy who runs TC Paintball doesn't know airsoft. He doesn't understand that paintball formats don't necessarily work. And the airsofters up here have tried to work with him to fix things, get him to chrono properly, to create game formats that work for airsoft, etc. But it's a constant back and forth. @deputy865.
5. The Old Guard, or what is left of it, has moved on to the next stages of life. Myself, I've got a career, wife, baby, mortgage, etc. Most of "us" have that now. Its okay, but it means we only get out once or twice a month (sometimes less). Its hard to lead the charge with so many things vying for attention, I don't think I need to explain any further.
(I must note however, I definitely have more money to allocate to hobbies now, but Time =/= Money.)
This is me exactly. I have time to play maybe 4 times a year... once or twice a month would result in my wife murdering me.
The Old Guard also needs to take off their rose colored glasses every now and again and actually look around. The community we had in the past existed at that time due to some unique circumstances that no longer hold true. We've got a new set of players and a new community to work with and our focus should be on shaping that community as it exists. All the crying and moaning about "things were better in ye olden days, get off my lawn!" doesn't endear us old folks to the younger crowd.
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The Old Guard also needs to take off their rose colored glasses every now and again and actually look around. The community we had in the past existed at that time due to some unique circumstances that no longer hold true. We've got a new set of players and a new community to work with and our focus should be on shaping that community as it exists. All the crying and moaning about "things were better in ye olden days, get off my lawn!" doesn't endear us old folks to the younger crowd.
Well I think this is one thing I'll say my own 2 cents on. I personally don't see the old MIA as the perfect solution to organization in Michigan. I can poke holes in it all day long, between overmoderation(BigMack and several others), and the platform was honestly terrible even for the time(proboards). So there were allot of technology limitations, as well as mod/admin problems, user problems etc etc. By no means perfect, and to a certain degree not better or worse than what we have today, some ways better some ways worse.
But that all said I can do the same right now with MIA and poke holes in things we're doing wrong, or ways the technology isn't working. But and again just from a tech side of things forums are still a far superior platform for this type of communication. Without digging into it deeply, google crawling, and organization. Going no further than that it owns facebook. Now before anyone takes out the pitchforks, facebook has some very nice and easy functional features. And for allot of stuff it's honestly maybe the best solution right now. Connecting with friends, etc it's super handy. Advertising functionality goes far beyond other social platforms like Twitter. I could run through a bunch of things it does well and back and forth with plus's and minus's on each platform.
But the community that is MIA is really not a host, it's a group of players with an interest and knowledge of airsoft. And much like Proboards, it's a knowledgebase of data, tons of it. I still go and look things up, yesterday while digging around on the net looking for the release date of the TM M733, couldn't find it. Thought I remembered it, found it on the old proboards site. That information is to a degree one of the most important functions of MIA. As an organization we've virtually outlasted any of our other contemporaries, and generally retained all that information even if currently it's sitting there locked on proboards. At least it's not being deleted or removed. Here on the new site going forward we control that information, and say 10 years from now it will still be available for the next generation of players.
To me that's the most important factor but it's also sidelined by the fact that the information itself needs to be here for that function to work.
Luke
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But the community that is MIA is really not a host, it's a group of players with an interest and knowledge of airsoft.
I guess this is where I struggle.
What are we trying to do with this conversation?
Is this conversation about getting people back to the forums and participating in the knowledge base?
Is this conversation about increasing the number of a "big game"/scenario/milsim events?
Is this conversation about addressing the fragmentation of the community and figuring out a way to bring people together?
Is this conversation about trying to foster a tighter, less antagonistic community?
Speaking for myself, "improving the community" means having more large, complex games and getting people to attend them. I am generally unconcerned about the forum because 1) the data is archived and searchable and 2) because people aren't going to come back to using forums. I don't think we can solve the community fragmentation problem other than by getting people out to more events and having them meet other players. I do think that we can have a less antagonistic, hyper-aggressive community by doing a better job of setting examples and by creating a particular ethos among players that promotes respect.
I think we're really good at identifying the issues that exist, but less good at setting goals or constructing a road map of how to get where we want to be after identifying where that is.
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I think it's a bit of a mix, chicken and egg problem to a certain degree. But I disagree on the point of not getting guys back to the forum, or rather maybe forums aren't the answer and something else is. However my overall point is purely Facebook I don't think is the solution, it might be part of the solution. But it lacks too many features to run MIA effectively and create a good user experience as well as archiving that information going ahead.
The way I see it Facebook is in a position that they are the largest and most used social network, but they are also in a bind, they need to change their platform at this point to allow those functions for communities like MIA to exist there. If they don't then something will surpass them. Think MySpace vs. Facebook. At this point that could be forums as strange as that seems, but it would require some serious changes on the forum software side of things, as well as working within the understanding that most guys are visiting MIA(facebook or here) on a mobile device. So those functions need to lower that barrier to entry to make it easier for guys to use the software. On the facebook side there isn't a dang thing we can do, it's their house we're just taking up space in it. Functions/features we're stuck with what they offer and there isn't anything we can do about it. That's part of the problem as I see it, but here we can make changes and try and make the platform work better for the users which I think would be an improvement over the way things are running now.
The problem with that approach is time, I've got very little time, and this isn't a small project. I've got a couple things I should be able to do in my timeline planned to try and make the forums work better for guys and make things easier and I think that's a step in the right direction.
As far as games and organization there, I'm very limited and I don't try to plan or do much there purely because I'm not local or in a position to really help or change things there. On a good year I might be able to get to a game downstate, but not this year. I'll run and organize up here of course but that doesn't help necessarily with the whole of the issues down in your neck of the woods. We're in a different position up here because it's smaller and more regional without allot of the community issues that are occurring downstate.
I'm very open to suggestions and ideas for the path forward on getting the playerbase to larger games and organizing them, but I don't feel right spearheading it. I'll give input etc, happy to do it.
And just looping back around the information currently on the old MIA is archived, the information here is archived, but everything on Facebook isn't. In the sense that if anything changes on that platform everything is gone. Whether that be Facebook decides that airsoft is too much like guns and shuts it down, or whatever happens. So I'd rather see that discussion occur somewhere it can be searched by people even outside of Michigan, as well as stored long term for guys going forward.
And I think as a whole this thread is going to put all the info out there of what guys think the path forward is, then we can come up with a plan. But since the forums are pretty slow compared to what they used to be I don't think we need to jump to action either. Looking it over and figuring out ideas I think will give us a good way to go forward but I want to make sure the guys interested in having an opinion have a good chance to air it publicly before plans are made etc.
Luke
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The "us versus them" mentality is part of the issue. In terms of community-player-host relationships, there is no "us" or "them". All of us are here on an airsoft forum/facebook group. I would bet money on the fact that the the hosts, moderators, and admins are still players and still part of the community. I would equally bet on the fact that they also own an airsoft replica, camouflage, some sort of gear, and eye protection as well... I have never understood this part of the debate, and this is an old, old arguement; going back to the proboards forum.
As was said above, Michigan Airsoft (MiA) is not a team, hosting organization, or a field. We are an non-profit, loose organization, made up of airsoft players, event hosts, fields, retailers, and teams. Granted, Michigan Airsoft has been viewed as "elitest" in the past. I'm not sure why either. There is a non-centralized leadership structure for the organization, but again it's not centralized. There is no one single entity in charge and that is going back to the old proboard days.
Old Michigan Airsoft Proboards Forum: http://miairsoft.proboards.com/
Since the old proboards forum won't load for me, off the top of my head the old moderators/admins were: Myself, Mosin, Mirage, Gimpalong, Bigmack, Hadoken, Big Texas, GlassArchitect, Knief, Timm, and I apologize to anyone I forgot, I know there were more. Only five people (2 per group and then one) were part of the same team. Myself (FLAK) and GlassArchitect (FLAK) and Mirage (RAGE) and Mosin (RAGE). Timm is a dual enrolled member of FLAK and the Bastards I believe. Big Texas used to play with the RAGE guys, but didn't towards the end. I havn't seen Mirage or GlassArchitect on the field in a long time either. Big Texas has lived in Illinois for a while now as well.
In my opinion; the "elitest" outlook may simply come from the fact that people don't like being told what to do nor obeying the rules/regulations of others that they do not agree with. For right or wrong.
I've heard this before as an event host and a moderator; "Oh this is shitty", "I don't like you or your field", "I don't like your team", etc, etc, etc. If you a part of an organization, at a game, part of a team; play by the rules whether you like them or not. If you are not in a leadership position, you are more than welcome to propose a change but blatent shitposting/flaming/etc isn't the way to do it. It will probably prompt a negative reaction from the party that is in a position of authority as well.
Again, there is no "us" or "them". If you want to prompt change in regards to something, make a good impression and go from there, play by the rules, and don't be an ass. That's what I've always gone by...
Back to the "lack" of large scale, organized events in the state; event hosts need the players as much as the players need the event hosts. It's a two-way street for all parties involved, no matter how you feel. Because you cannot run a large scale game with the seven people that show up, unannounced, without a pre-decided uniforms/factions... What's left is an open play style, recreational game and that's what it's become for the most part in the state on the events front.
There are still some large scale event hosts left in Michigan. But hosts need the help of the players that want a place to play. Or else the players themselves need to step up to the plate and give it a shot. On either hand it comes back to someone with ties to a location or making a proposal to a field and taking the reigns.
No matter what; being a welcoming, open, and accepting community both on the internet, on the field, and with field owners/hosts will keep us together as an organization and network of players.
I also like your idea of a rotating event series in 2018 Gimpalong. I'll toss my field's name in the ring for a potential location.
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Although I'm newer to the community and haven't lived through some of the growing pains, I've been following along with the discussion and would like to offer up some ideas for an action plan stemming from the conversation.
1) Someone should lead the charge in making the miairsoft.org the number 1 spot for Michigan based airsoft information.
This includes a lot of ongoing task trying to herd the community here, but I think the biggest one is connecting with all the common event hosts and get buy in from them to use the forums as their number 1 spot for events. Of course use the other channels for advertising methods to further the reach, but the forums should be the go to spot for the full details of the event, signup information, etc. If all of the events are being concatenated into one location, it forces the airsoft players to use the forums as a way to get the information about the events, sign up, and participate in the sport.
Players are only going to follow the lead of the event hosts. As a player myself, I'm joining all the Facebook groups and forums that I can find to prevent missing out on opportunities because there isn't a consensus on where this information should be. But if all the hosts are agreeing to unify the community in a central location, everyone benefits: The hosts get their events in front of the entire community instead of just the people that like them on Facebook, and the players have a central repository to go find events to participate in. It streamlines everything.
To get buy-in from the hosts, there needs to be a champion who is going to lead the way in connecting with the host and organizing conversations to push them in that direction. Once the major event hosts start doing this regularly, the rest of the hosts will follow and it will become the standard. Then, players don't have a choice and the forum grows.
2) Event hosts need to work together and coordinate with each other.
There should really be some type of open communication chat that is constantly going on between the event host. I'm not sure if that is a FB messenger group, a text message group, an email chain, or whatever. The point is that all the host should be working together on a few different levels:
- They should work together to not schedule their events on the same weekend. Has anyone got a full tally on the events happening on October 21? I've counted like 4 in Michigan and that doesn't even include Milsim West. Of course the community is divided because players are split all across these events. Why isn't 1 or 2 of these events on October 14 or even October 28? Cause I haven't found anything for those dates. This allows players to attend more events and allow host to have more participation at each event.
- Hosts should plan events together, co-brand them / co-sponor them, or whatever, to help unite the community. Yes event host compete on some levels, but why not work together to benefit everyone? How about a host on the east side partners with a host on the west side and holds a big co-sponsored game a location in the middle? I would say that most players agree that more players with larger playing fields and more organization is more enjoyable experience than smaller games. (I'm speaking more towards the scenario / milsim events rather than weekly rec games)
3) We all need to find ways to support opening of new fields / locations to play the game.
So far, I haven't been able to participate in any event that is less than 2 hours away. I don't mind the drive, but I'm sure there are many players that aren't able to make that type of trip every couple weeks or so. This lowers overall participation of the sport. We needs some entrepreneurs and leaders to step up and work together to get some more playing fields throughout the state. Of course, this is much easier said than done. There is a lot that goes into this. But my point is that if the community wants to thrive, we need places to play the game. Players are the ones that drive this.
We as players need to support our community members that are trying to open new locations. Help with labor, materials, and most importantly, help get players to their fields to play the game. We need to be the advocates and push our community to grow. Individual host can't do it alone.
All of this is easier said than done, but it starts with some champions leading the charge and setting up the organization and communication efforts to make it a reality. This thread is a start, but it's only the beginning.
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I will say on the communication front that is something we do in the UP as a whole. I'm in communication with the other guys hosting and planning, that's actually why we had an event last weekend, we've got one this weekend at another host, then one on the 21st here, and one on the 28th at another host. But sometimes we also end up doing Saturday/Sunday at different locations as well. But typically with our small community that does still draw players away from one to the other.
I'm not sure with the size of the player base in lower Michigan and the distance to events if having say an event on the east side, and one on the west on the same day would actually have much effect. I guess that's up to you guys and how far you typically are willing to travel and from the host perspective how far are guys traveling to get to your games.
But I do think that's a good idea, I'd happily put up a new section on the forums for hosts to communicate, or you of course could do it in a group chat on facebook or where ever makes sense. But I think that's a good idea.
Also that kind of connects with the calendar function I installed here since that was the goal there, was to allow guys to look at a calendar of events and locations to be able to not only plan their games but also see when others were playing. And players then could get a good idea what was happening when.
Luke
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2) Event hosts need to work together and coordinate with each other.
There should really be some type of open communication chat that is constantly going on between the event host. I'm not sure if that is a FB messenger group, a text message group, an email chain, or whatever. The point is that all the host should be working together on a few different levels:
- They should work together to not schedule their events on the same weekend. Has anyone got a full tally on the events happening on October 21? I've counted like 4 in Michigan and that doesn't even include Milsim West. Of course the community is divided because players are split all across these events. Why isn't 1 or 2 of these events on October 14 or even October 28? Cause I haven't found anything for those dates. This allows players to attend more events and allow host to have more participation at each event.
- Hosts should plan events together, co-brand them / co-sponor them, or whatever, to help unite the community. Yes event host compete on some levels, but why not work together to benefit everyone? How about a host on the east side partners with a host on the west side and holds a big co-sponsored game a location in the middle? I would say that most players agree that more players with larger playing fields and more organization is more enjoyable experience than smaller games. (I'm speaking more towards the scenario / milsim events rather than weekly rec games)
There is a sort of gentleman's agreement on this where the various event hosts have agreed not to host on top of one another. That generally has held true only for "big" events. So if there's rec play scheduled at Bangor on the west side and rec play at No Limits on the east side, those events might be scheduled at the same time because they're not really drawing the same crowd. Guys who are going out to rec play probably aren't going to drive across the state to play when a rec event is scheduled close to them. Obviously there are exceptions to this, but generally that logic has seemed to hold true.
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I think October 21st of this year was a coincidence for all hosts involved, myself included. Most event hosts don't nessicarily coordinate for event dates, but I'm positive knowing all parties involved that no one was out to get the other. Between all parties involved, that hasn't happened before and I doubt it's happened this time.
I've hosted an autumn scenario event with Hole in the Wall Paintball since 2006 (Operation: Flash Fire/Operation: Firestorm) on whatever weekend is closest to the middle of the month. So, that's what I went off of.
As Gimpalong said, it's more of a "gentlemans agreement" between hosts. I have yet to see hosts "go after each other" with event posting and event scheduling.
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I'm entirely new to the MiA forums, but I've been a member of the FB group for a while. I wanted to put my $0.02 into this topic, my buddy Ken and I have had long discussions about improving airsoft here.
The biggest thing I see being an issue is education. I play almost exclusively at MCA indoors for a multitude of reasons, not least of all I have bad knees and outdoor fields kill me. This is not intended as a shot at the guys at MCA, I think they're great, but because of the relatively large influx of renters and first timers, they don't really have time to explain a lot. They go over the rules for the field and get people out playing because let's face it, we don't pay to listen to explanations, we pay to play.
This is where the veterans can come in; we can explain the why of the rules and help teach the new kids how to play effectively. We can lead by example, by playing within the rules expected and keeping our tempers in check when we get bonus-balled. Instead of berating a new player for using bad tactics, we can teach them. We all love this sport, or we wouldn't be playing. We should be doing everything we can to instill that love into new players, or we'll all eventually be a bunch of old bastards in wheelchairs wheezing "call your hits!" at each other.
I try (and fail) to live up to those standards. I've lost my temper with people arguing and I shouldn't. I've ignored people trying to talk to me about their achievements on their first time out playing. I need to get better about that, and a lot of other players do too. If we want this sport to survive, we need to get rid of the salt and police each other on it.
Respect, at the end of the day, is what is needed. Just because I play a tactical game doesn't mean I need to talk crap about speedsofters and vice versa. The veterans of the sport need to, again, lead by example here. If we treat new players with respect, they'll see that and (hopefully) start emulating it. We need to take new players under our wings and teach them how to play. We need to gently correct players when they step outside the rules, and if that fails, we go to the ref instead of starting arguments.
We also need to make sure that our friendly jibes at each other over guns or gear are recognized as just that. I've had new players come to me concerned because people who have played together for a long time are sniping at each other verbally. What we say to each other is heard by other players and we need to be aware of that.
Another issue I've seen with the new kids is the fear of getting hit. Again, we can lead by example there. Grab a new kid and take them along with you and show them it's not a big deal. Get them playing, so they want to keep playing. We need to do better. If we do better, the game gets better.
While the field owners have skin in this game, ultimately it is up to us. We patronize fields that play by the rules and do things that make us want to play there. Fields that don't ultimately lose business. We are the driving force for airsoft in Michigan, for better or worse. It's on us as players to keep the community welcoming and eliminate the toxic attitudes that have started to invade the game. It's a huge responsibility, not only to the game but to each other. We need to keep each other in check, as well as keeping ourselves. Without players, there's no game.
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Paul Alan Buffington - Does this prove the moderators/admins here are the same as facebook?
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After reading through this thread and closely monitoring what has transpired through MIA for the past several years, I wanted to provide input:
I used to help run the Jackal events and am a former member of the OCAA. For those that remember (such as Gimp), even then I can recollect issues with how the community felt, specifically in regards to being "clique-ish" or "divided." Was this true? To an extent, yes - because many of the smaller, non-MIA oriented communities detested the rules and standards put forth. I am noticing, however, the general attitude these smaller communities pursued then has extended into what a majority of players who do not wish to unify think now; they are not seeing the bigger picture on behalf of our community as a whole. And that's okay. Should they? Probably, but this will take time, and a lot of mentoring/teaching of the old community unto the new with respect to how events were handled, player etiquette, general attitude towards games/the excitement of playing, etc.
It's okay if they do not feel the need to unify under one commonality, as one collective (a la MIA), which is unfortunate for us, where the old framework of the community (as Canto said) fell through after proboards was archived. This surely damaged the foundation built up by the past mods/admins, and for the current ones. As many others have identified, the influx of activity these days is through Facebook, albeit through several groups. This is why I say it's okay to not unify: It's okay for different groups to possess different schools of thought regarding how the game should be played, or to stick to one specific area. There is a lot of nuance to be identified based on this, however a lot of it was outlined in previous posts and I feel it detracts from my point: We need to not only teach new(er) players more about the sport, but we also need to ask ourselves: How can we approach this?
Unfortunately I find it to be an extremely complicated issue, despite airsoft as a sport being rather specific, aside from the different forms of play. As established already, people play for different reasons; they want multi-day operations, they only want to play for an afternoon, they rarely get time to play, etc. This is fine, of course - variety is the spice of life, and it certainly allows the sport, especially in our state, to have more players.
I do not think we should look into how we can unify the community, but rather improving the attitude of players. I took a two-year hiatus until last winter, and based on the dozen times I have played this year, I agree the general mindset of players has changed. The playerbase seems less friendly, less willing to learn. Which is why I suggest we play and lead by example.
Not only should those of us responding identify issues at hand (we already have), we should actively discourage the same issues we're experiencing. At games, we should be friendly and outgoing to newer players. We should help them, talk to them, befriend them, do things to pique their interest and ultimately encourage them to continue playing. We should lead by example to impart a lasting impression on them. After all, our first memories in a sport (especially airsoft) mold who we become as a player. If we can positively impact/help as many newer players as possible and perhaps educate them as soon as possible, our quality should improve. At MCA, for example, when I play with my teammate(s), we are very friendly and helpful to newer players. In fact, I remember a teammate and I defusing a heated player last winter. This is the kind of behavior we should strive to achieve; to be level-headed, calm, and willing to teach/learn. I feel this to be the first major step towards growth.
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I think a lot of good points have been made so far.
A couple of things come to mind:
a) Making MIA the central resource for all things Michigan Airsoft.
Content is king. I think we have already made some moves in the right direction here. If we can drum up interest and conversation the forums will heal themselves. To be honest, even the Facebook page has gotten stale lately. I find myself wandering over to the page multiple times a day looking for interesting content, just to find nothing. I've always been more of a follower than a leader in that regard, I'm happy to give advice, answer questions, discuss opinions, etc. I think I'll be trying to generate more discussion threads here, and participate in active ones.
b) Statewide events
I love the idea of quarterly events around the state. How about "MIA Field Days", bring them back! Perhaps organizing a community swap meet or product show. There was mention of something earlier this year, but I never heard anything come of it.
c) Engaging new players, leading by example, expanding the community
Absolutely! The best thing you can do is to be friendly, get the kid in the hoodie and paintball mask to follow you into the bushes, or help clear a room. Talk about gear, share your experience. A lot of us already do this, as was said "Lead by example" don't judge.
Also, you'd be surprised by the people around you that might be interested in the hobby. I've recruited a coworker and his son, and two different coworker's husbands into airsoft. Hell, we're practically building an office league over here. What's crazy, is these guys are all over 40, go figure.
So yeah, be an AMBASSADOR to airsoft and MIA.
d) What is the end goal of this conversation?
I think everyone is going to find something different here, to some a research resource, to others a way to interact with people across the state, still others might find a team or guys they want to play with and get to know in person on the field. To Gimpalong's point,
Is this conversation about getting people back to the forums and participating in the knowledge base?
Is this conversation about increasing the number of a "big game"/scenario/milsim events?
Is this conversation about addressing the fragmentation of the community and figuring out a way to bring people together?
Is this conversation about trying to foster a tighter, less antagonistic community?
I believe it to be all of the above.
Okay---so the last part... :o
As was said above, Michigan Airsoft (MiA) is not a team, hosting organization, or a field. We are an non-profit, loose organization, made up of airsoft players, event hosts, fields, retailers, and teams. Granted, Michigan Airsoft has been viewed as "elitest" in the past. I'm not sure why either. There is a non-centralized leadership structure for the organization, but again it's not centralized. There is no one single entity in charge and that is going back to the old proboard days.
Let me preface this: The following is an insane thought, I know the implications are far reaching, and incredibly complicated and I may get grilled for saying any of this, but here goes-- :-X
d) MIA isn't a team, an authority or sanctioning body.
Should it be? Or has the opportunity passed us up at this point? I'm sure this discussion was had years ago. It has so much potential to be a sticky subject. I'm sure many cringe at the idea of trying to form an organized NPO. If MIA had that level of organization, what could it do to affect positive change in the community?
If you look at it like companies look at things like ISO and similar regulatory bodies. It has potential to standardize, organize, sanction, sponsor, and certify. MIA would become a huge part of the community in a ton of new ways, strengthen Airsoft as an industry in State of Michigan (heck as scary as it is, it could go as far as lobbying in the State legislature, imagine things like tax breaks to small businesses, grants or loans for startups, even allocation of public lands for public fields...)
MIA would have to partner with shops, fields, teams--everyone, and those would become a part of MIA in a new way. In the same way things like ISO are like that, you join it, you comply, you become a partner, it becomes you, you become it.
Okay---you may need to go an wash after reading that dirty mess of an idea.
Sorry.
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are far reaching, and incredibly complicated and I may get grilled for saying any of this, but here goes-- :-X
d) MIA isn't a team, an authority or sanctioning body.
Should it be? Or has the opportunity passed us up at this point? I'm sure this discussion was had years ago. It has so much potential to be a sticky subject. I'm sure many cringe at the idea of trying to form an organized NPO. If MIA had that level of organization, what could it do to affect positive change in the community?
If you look at it like companies look at things like ISO and similar regulatory bodies. It has potential to standardize, organize, sanction, sponsor, and certify. MIA would become a huge part of the community in a ton of new ways, strengthen Airsoft as an industry in State of Michigan (heck as scary as it is, it could go as far as lobbying in the State legislature, imagine things like tax breaks to small businesses, grants or loans for startups, even allocation of public lands for public fields...)
MIA would have to partner with shops, fields, teams--everyone, and those would become a part of MIA in a new way. In the same way things like ISO are like that, you join it, you comply, you become a partner, it becomes you, you become it.
Okay---you may need to go an wash after reading that dirty mess of an idea.
Sorry.
There is no one central person, business, team, or field in charge though, it's a loose collective of people in a social network that choose to associate. There are people here from all walks of life and levels of involvement. There is no business license, no tax id, because it's not needed. This is a club, nothing more. Clubs are allowed to set their own rules according to what they see fit.
Zero of the current admins here or on facebook are on the same team that are active anymore. Not a single active one.
Safety standards are more or less the only "regulatory" factor. Even then that can be argued for the sake of common sense and general well-being.