Completely agree. Sorry I didn't see this yesterday with everything going on. I think you're right though that forums are longer form and require a little more thought going into posts and that changes things.

I'm going to be making some changes to Ideally make it easier for guys to be able to use the forums. But one of the big issues here or Facebook is mobile. On mobile it's allot more difficult to make long and easy to read posts. So guys are more prone to writing a short statement, which isn't a problem in most cases. But without voice inflection I think you end up with more disagreement and conflict because of the way it may come off to the people reading it. The problem then becomes what type of input would be faster and more natural for the phone and I don't have a good answer there. Maybe voice transcription might do it, but that's about the only way I see it being faster and more natural.

Another thing that I think comes with that is that my train of thought moves the same speed as I type. So on a phone oftentimes my mind isn't keeping with where my fingers are typing;) So by the time I type one thing I've lost the flow of what I'm saying in the larger sense.

Certainly some challenges with communication as a whole over the internet but I think forums have a place going forward. Facebook I think does also I don't think at least at this point it's going anywhere today. But I have made mention that it is loosing some younger guys because it's not the "cool" place which doesn't bode well long term. But I think as we stand here today it's replacement hasn't been made yet. But in 5 years Facebook could become this tech cycles MySpace as well. All it takes is someone fixing their problems and getting enough people on board. I don't really care much if Facebook gets replaced over time it's just the way of the tech world and even though I don't do that stuff daily anymore I still have seen allot come and go over the years

Either way appreciate your point of view and coming here to share it.

Take care

Luke

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I really appreciate that as do the other guys I'm sure.

Just an update for everyone more details will be forthcoming, but the group prior to a few minutes ago that was MIA's facebook page has been taken over and removed from our control(staff). As a result we've started a new open group to be the Facebook presence of MIA going forward. None of us wanted it to come to that, but under the circumstances we felt there wasn't a path forward with the current group and situation.

I apologize to everyone involved in this situation for the headaches this will cause the community. But we're going to keep an open mind going forward, and the group will be open rather than closed as well from here out. Currently there is a plan in place to insure this type of thing can't occur in the future. We've got control of the group in the hands of a trusted long time mod Canto(John from Hole in the Wall). And the agreement we've always held to will hold going forward. Any changes to the group or roles will go through all of the staff not a single person.

I should also mention we don't own MIA, the staff and community we all own MIA. If there is a decision made it's made with those all being a part. Admittedly since the start, Hadoken began MIA and basically setup the framework we've all worked within since then. But since he's not around and active we've continued to follow those rules and move the community forward. But no single person owns or holds control over MIA and given we all are around it will always stay that way.

Here is a link to the new group feel free to sign up: https://www.facebook.com/groups/MichiganAirsoft

Luke

I will say on the communication front that is something we do in the UP as a whole. I'm in communication with the other guys hosting and planning, that's actually why we had an event last weekend, we've got one this weekend at another host, then one on the 21st here, and one on the 28th at another host. But sometimes we also end up doing Saturday/Sunday at different locations as well. But typically with our small community that does still draw players away from one to the other.

I'm not sure with the size of the player base in lower Michigan and the distance to events if having say an event on the east side, and one on the west on the same day would actually have much effect. I guess that's up to you guys and how far you typically are willing to travel and from the host perspective how far are guys traveling to get to your games.

But I do think that's a good idea, I'd happily put up a new section on the forums for hosts to communicate, or you of course could do it in a group chat on facebook or where ever makes sense. But I think that's a good idea.

Also that kind of connects with the calendar function I installed here since that was the goal there, was to allow guys to look at a calendar of events and locations to be able to not only plan their games but also see when others were playing. And players then could get a good idea what was happening when.

Luke

The Old Guard also needs to take off their rose colored glasses every now and again and actually look around. The community we had in the past existed at that time due to some unique circumstances that no longer hold true. We've got a new set of players and a new community to work with and our focus should be on shaping that community as it exists. All the crying and moaning about "things were better in ye olden days, get off my lawn!" doesn't endear us old folks to the younger crowd.

Well I think this is one thing I'll say my own 2 cents on. I personally don't see the old MIA as the perfect solution to organization in Michigan. I can poke holes in it all day long, between overmoderation(BigMack and several others), and the platform was honestly terrible even for the time(proboards). So there were allot of technology limitations, as well as mod/admin problems, user problems etc etc. By no means perfect, and to a certain degree not better or worse than what we have today, some ways better some ways worse.

But that all said I can do the same right now with MIA and poke holes in things we're doing wrong, or ways the technology isn't working. But and again just from a tech side of things forums are still a far superior platform for this type of communication. Without digging into it deeply, google crawling, and organization. Going no further than that it owns facebook. Now before anyone takes out the pitchforks, facebook has some very nice and easy functional features. And for allot of stuff it's honestly maybe the best solution right now. Connecting with friends, etc it's super handy. Advertising functionality goes far beyond other social platforms like Twitter. I could run through a bunch of things it does well and back and forth with plus's and minus's on each platform.

But the community that is MIA is really not a host, it's a group of players with an interest and knowledge of airsoft. And much like Proboards, it's a knowledgebase of data, tons of it. I still go and look things up, yesterday while digging around on the net looking for the release date of the TM M733, couldn't find it. Thought I remembered it, found it on the old proboards site. That information is to a degree one of the most important functions of MIA. As an organization we've virtually outlasted any of our other contemporaries, and generally retained all that information even if currently it's sitting there locked on proboards. At least it's not being deleted or removed. Here on the new site going forward we control that information, and say 10 years from now it will still be available for the next generation of players.

To me that's the most important factor but it's also sidelined by the fact that the information itself needs to be here for that function to work.

Luke

My concern with the 4 teams thing is that everytime I've seen anything like that done it leads to confusion on the player side of who's friend or foe, which is difficult in general in the field to tell sometimes. Which increases friendly fire which also will depend on the players. Just as an example one of the last games at STFU(Skandia group), they had a faction like that, that could be hired, but in the start of the game they were supposed to be neutral. Well they took me hostage of sorts, which I drew my glock and put it under Kris' chin and we had a mexican standoff between two of my guys and the "neutral" contractor etc team. Everyone got shot, but being the team leader my first command after spawning was shoot on sight for anyone on that team until further notice. So each time we got near them whether they were trying to communicate or otherwise we just steamrolled them and did our objective. Basically in my view not far off of what would typically occur in a real life scenario because if they killed two of your force immediately. Well they are hostile and no longer going to be allowed to have that opportunity again. Later after much negotiation I did hire them to hit a gun truck. But let me tell ya the negotiations were they were completely unarmed, and all of my guys had guns on them the entire time. Probably didn't help that I showed up that day with a migraine and wasn't in the mood to deal with that sort of craziness;) But that's how it shook out that time, and it didn't go as planned. Not saying it won't for you guys it might and hopefully pending I can swing it with two weekends back to back I'm going to come up and see;)

My own two cents though any sort of floating team assortment where allies vary is going to cause more confusion than necessary, especially without a long scenario with allot of players. I'll say it may be possible or workable in something like a 3 day game, where the allies don't change often or at setup portions of the story line. Not sure, but I'm leery based on what I've seen in the past and how common friendly fire tends to be in general;)

Luke

Honestly I think the only guys with any power so to speak are the hosts. They dictate where and when games are posted and where they are hosted. In essence without them the community as a whole would not exist. Of course other guys would start hosting but then they are driving that part.

I think to start its best to get all the information hashed out then figure out a plan of attack so to speak on how to accomplish at least some of the goals and keep things moving forward.

Take care

Luke

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The only thing I would question there is the size of the community, I don't have the numbers and I wasn't back yet during that 2008ish time frame. But from what I've seen in the member numbers etc, it looks like the community as a whole may have been bigger back then than it is today combining forum numbers along with facebook. That of course doesn't include more break off groups etc on facebook which could easily account for the different feel of the community.

I do agree though that the loss of the fields mentioned certainly effected MIA and airsoft within Michigan. And not to degrade the conversation into MSW/LC discussion. But I think at the end of the day that whole incident and following controversy hurt airsoft as a whole. It drove further division I think between players and who they were supporting by attending games. And I completely understand the guys who picked one side or the other, but I think putting players in a position where they have to pick is going to hurt both sides and isn't going to help airsoft grow as a hobby. But time frame wise that also occurred during this same stretch of decline and I do think that played a role. It came at a bad time to have a big issue within the community, and it was also an issue earlier with Blacksheep as well and that whole controversy.

The one place I'm not sure I agree maybe I do but I'm torn is on REC games. I think of REC and scenario games as two independent things. Within a very small community of players sure they will draw guys from one to the other, particularly I think REC players will be less likely to go to a scenario game if they are just used to REC games. But I don't think it goes the other direction, if you typically play scenario games and you've got the choice between that and REC I think most guys will go scenario. I do think REC games can give a good introduction to more serious play, and sometimes be used for another step of scenario or milisim lite types of games to let guys decide if they would like to take it to the next step.

I think another thing though with milsim/scenario/anything more in depth than a rec game is making sure to educate the community about the game itself and it's requirements. Just as an example and not a great one but an example none the less. When I went down to Irene first large scale game I've been to, first time anything more than a local game since I've been back. I researched, posted, asked questions and generally tried to find any information I could to be prepared. I also then passed all that to my guys I was bringing with so we were all up to speed. We still missed some things, and we still could have done better. That wasn't a crazy intense game as far as what was needed etc, but the information was way harder to find than I think is practical. I'm a research junkie, and if it weren't for me I don't honestly think most of my guys would have found allot of the minor stuff needed etc. Since there is also variation in the hosts, that requires different gear etc. That's something I think could really be improved with allot of hosts of more in depth games. Insure the players know exactly what to bring and what is needed for the game, otherwise some guys will just think it's too difficult to figure out and may not attend when otherwise they could. And I can't speak for all games, but I have researched games other than Lion Claws over the years and run into some of the same headaches.

So I think getting that information out there and easy to process for new players to that particular host/series/events, would be a big help to the community as well as drawing in new players to those games. Possibly even as simple as youtube videos explaining rules and such(which to their credit LC did do some of, but it was far too few, and too little information).

That though at least from my perspective would be a huge help to new players of that particular host, especially if they don't have players near them to be able to bounce questions off of. As well when you ask some of those questions you get replies like "oh that doesn't really matter". And while that may be true, maybe they don't enforce that rule in particular but it's good to know the "goal" rather than the accepted standard of play so to speak. And as it stands often times it's very confusing for most players who haven't attended that sort of event in the past to figure out the details and get all their ducks in a row before showing up to play.

Luke