Michigan Airsoft
Michigan Airsoft => Airsoft Discussion => Topic started by: luke213 on September 27, 2016, 02:25:32 PM
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So I was thinking about something while I was working on a new gun build the other day. I'm typically an AEG guy when it comes to primary guns, though a little bolt action spring gun too. But generally I work on and use AEG's as my primary guns. Since I've been around from the old days, back then a 9.6v battery made for a fast ROF at least to most guys and we're talking maybe 20rps or less usually less. There were guys playing around with 10.8v stuff but it was rare, and mosfets weren't really a thing at all. So most full auto guns were very slow fire rate compared to even the most bare bones stock guns that are released these days and it's common to see 11.1v lipos which can drop allot more current and voltage than we ever thought really possible back in the day;)
So here is the question part, over the years I've always been a fan of a pretty moderate to slow ROF. A couple reasons, I like the slow consumption of ammo which makes it easier to not run out on the field. But I also always felt it was overkill in the sense that it takes one BB to get a hit on someone why shoot them with a burst of 10.
Now since I've been playing I know a few guys who build high DSG ROF style builds 30+RPS but even higher at times. Which I will say on the field does have an intimidation factor to it, when you hear that thing buzz it does make you duck and cover a bit more. But I can't help but think it's still a waste of ammo for our application.
And that gun I mentioned in the first part, well it's a medium ROF gun, higher than anything I've built or owned in the past. It's running approximately 25RPS maybe a bit more. And that wasn't an intentional thing, I mostly was building a semi auto trigger response type of build which makes for ROF.
So I'm curious to hear what you guys opinions are, do you like high ROF stuff if so why? Low like what I described above? Mostly I'm curious since allot of this is fairly new to me, in the sense that it didn't exist like this in the past and there might be a part of it that I haven't considered. So far I'm enjoying the quick trigger response on this new build, but when going to auto I'm amazed at how quickly I can dump a mid cap mag;)
Take care!
Luke
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Most of the MIA games I've been at have been semi only for everything other than support weapons. I like this style of gameplay because it adds a bit of realism and gives a real purpose to support weapons.
If you are shooting semi only for most/all of the game then trigger response is top priority. I've set up my AEGs with high speed gears and high torque motors to acheive a moderate ROF 20-25 rps and excellent trigger response. There are plenty of combos that work well for this and may also provide even higher rof but I have never dabbled with DSGs.
As for support guns which shoot primarily full auto, there obviously has to be a balance between firepower and ammo conservation. In an effective squad the support gunner allows the other squad members to maneuver by keeping opfor heads down and to do so effectively IMO they need some intimidation factor. It's not realistic that the support gun would have an optimal ROF to actually pin down or eliminate all opfor, the key is to have a ROF high enough that the opfor FEELS like if they pop up they are immediate risk of getting hit. To be truly effective on the field the support gunner may need to do this to numerous opfor at once spread out across a fairly wide area. I think the best way to really make people duck is simple, set up the support gun with an ROF well above what anyone else is likely to have. In my book that's about 30rps. Not just that, make it hit hard. Have it on the upper limit of the velocity limit that the rules allow and use a bb weight that gives you a nice range, somewhere around .28 to .3. It doesn't need to be particularly accurate, it just needs to be able to deliver a hail of plastic in someone's immediate area and make them hop back behind cover.
I can say that at bigger semi-only games I've been at, no one really batted an eye when my friend opened up with his RPK shooting around 18rps. With enough other shooting going on no one really notices. A support gun needs to be one that everyone hears over everything else.
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I'm not really a fan of super ROF guns because it detracts from skill. When your AEG makes almost a solid line of Bb's you end up just walking them onto your target. Maybe if it's a machine gun and they are providing cover fire, but other than that I don't really see the appeal there. Personally I would want a fast trigger response, which may put me in that high ROF area mechanically speaking. But it would be for semi fire only, even if I needed a full auto lockout.
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That's actually two great points that I hadn't considered or dealt with typically since I've been back. In the past I don't recall a MIA game where we were restricted to semi auto(way back in the day no current hosts etc), and that has mostly carried forward to our games up here. There has been a recent push towards doing some semi only other than support guns but thus far it hasn't happened. So our games up here auto is allowed, and quite a few guys do use it for normal games. Myself I'm almost entirely a semi auto user, maybe I'm cheap I hate wasting ammo;) But I also hate running out so I tend to conserve ammo when I play and stay with the single shot in most cases.
The support gun is a great point and I'd agree. There are several guys up here that own support guns but they seldom use them, and I really think one of the reasons is the lack of a reason to. Yeah they have box mags and that's an advantage but with nearly twice the weight of the average AEG without a firepower advantage in ROF or FPS there isn't much reason to.
Anyways that's two very good points I'm going to have to think a bit more about doing a semi auto restriction on games going forward. Sounds silly since I've been playing so long but being up here I'm sort of secluded in the sense that our games don't always follow what would be common downstate;) Especially considering that we have almost all woodland style games, not allot of indoor anything. As such auto being common is just the normal but I think that might very well need to change.
Luke
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A few years ago I did wonder if there would ever be ROF enforcement for games. Like a formula used to estimate the replica's ROF. By using the gun's ROF that the replica is based on.
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Well most of the old stuff was fairly close in fire rate to the real guns, that was one thing I always liked about that as well. But the argument was always that a single BB wasn't as effective as a single bullet which of course is true. There were some that differed like the Thompson etc. But once you get into the new stuff they are certainly higher ROF wise than their realistic counterparts.
Back in the day I considered dropping to a 7.2v NiCAD just to drop ROF a bit more;) But back then I also didn't really understand the system like I do now and didn't realize at the time or didn't think about what that would have done to my trigger response;)
Luke
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What if any AEG that fired faster than a certain ROF had full auto modified to a 3—5 round burst with a delay. Or each burst is per trigger pull?
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With 3 round burst on my BTC fet I can just spam the trigger and it is essentially full auto. Your suggestion would require everyone to have programable trigger fets which isn't going to happen. Semi only for all assault rifle platforms is simple to enforce and makes for fun gameplay in my experience. I'd be fine with anything sub 300fps shooting full auto as well. This might give some incentive for people to run SMGs which seem to have pretty much died out.
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Hmm that's an interesting idea on the SMG, I still see them at our games since well several of us use them as sort of backup guns for higher FPS builds during the winter months. Though I generally run an AEP as a backup just for weight and size. I think the idea of allowing full auto for SMG's might actually be interesting but one snag for other fields would be insurance issues with full auto indoors etc. But I think for a game I was doing my restriction would be much like support guns, basically an SMG is actually an SMG and running a setup FPS or lower. That way guys wouldn't say oh my M4 is an SMG. Granted if it's a stubby obvious SMG m4 then great(I own one of those), but that still might be an interesting change in style. Though that said it might be even more complicated to keep everyone on the same page and insure everyone is following the rules. Especially for ref's since they hear auto when they shouldn't hear auto go to look only to find an SMG user.
Either way though it's one to think on;) I'm always curious how other people view parts of the game etc, since sometimes you get a view that completely is outside the stuff you've been thinking;)
Luke
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In the year since I've started playing my personal preference has always been on lower ROF(20 RPS or less) being more enjoyable both to play with/against. I feel like it takes more skill to line up your shots and fire with intent versus just spraying an area with as much plastic as possible hoping one or more curves towards your target. Higher ROF can also lead to overshooting which can also be an issue with HPA (trigger spam on semi) and lower ROF builds for less experienced players.
Some of the least enjoyable experiences I had had dealt with players spraying at insane ROF into brush at way too close of a distance and too high of a FPS.(Ohio vs Michigan Round 2). Just this last weekend at future ball I was reloading my Kriss when some guy with a high ROF lit me up from heel to head that left numerous bleeding welts from 50ft through clothing. Obviously not every high ROF build would have the same issue but there will always be "that guy".
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The SMG idea would be interesting. I know the shorter barrels would mean decreased range, but full auto might balance them a bit on the field.
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Actually there is a pretty good argument that shorter barrels can be just as effective or more than long barrels for accuracy, I don't 100% buy that theory but it was put forward from guys with a bit more tech experience than I have so who knows. My own experience has been that typically longer barrels of good quality show a more consistent group at distance, though bore quality and FPS consistency plays a crucial role there as well. So hard to say, but at least from my experiences I'd say FPS, barrel quality, and hopup bucking/chamber quality is what is crucial to long range effectiveness. For instance my stubby M4, not a great gun some tuning and pretty consistent. It's only shooting something like 280fps with a .2g right now, mostly because I cut the barrel down even further than it was stock. It's probably around an inch shorter than an MP5k barrel nearly pistol length. However it's pretty dang consistent at 50 yards;) Enough so that I can pretty much hit 10 out of 10 on a folding chair at that distance, maybe with a flier, but that very well could be ammo since I'm using common 0.25g and nothing fancy.
I haven't encountered much for "bad" players at our games up here, perks of a small community I guess in that most guys are pretty good about not overshooting and not shooting too close too hot. But mistakes happen, and previously we didn't all have reliable access to a chrono for our smaller games. After some hits that I felt left allot more of a mark than it should have for the given expected FPS. We started chronoing at every game, or at least with any changes on a gun. Since I do allot of the work for the guys that play at the field IE if a change is made it 99% got made here in my shop. So if I've got a guy who knows nothing about internals and is known trustworthy shot 400fps last week it's almost a certainty that he's shooting 400 this week. Enough so that at the last game we did things a little different I wasn't hosting and they were classifying rifles with tags(we typically don't, there are only a few guys who shoot over 400fps regularly, everyone else is under and it's easy to track). Anyways he chrono'd and came back with a white zip tie, 400fps or under. And came to talk to me since we just did work a month or two ago on it and had checked it out and it shot 440fps. The guy running the chrono didn't know and was sort of confused, so I went back over there with the guy and his rifle that I knew was shooting hotter than his tag indicated to make sure it was done again, or if nothing else just give him the right tag for what he's actually shooting. Since I knew that gun, and indeed checking it again it showed up correctly.
Either way I'm off topic;) But we generally don't see much trouble with that sort of player up here who overshoots or shoots too close. If someone does they get a talking to if it becomes an issue they won't be invited back. And with so few options to play up here not getting invited back is the approximate "your not going to play airsoft anymore" type of thing.
Luke
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Entering the conversation, definitely some interesting points and ideas have come up.
The idea behind full auto SMGs under 300fps (or adequate joules with a .20) would definitely add a whole new factor into the application. Though honestly, if going for a full auto indoor application, would recommend 250fps or even less. It should be plenty enough to notice you are being hit as well as not causing too much commotion on the over shooting side of things.
While still having its own unique application. The soft buckings will have a demand again.
Maybe, maybe not, just spitting out some of my thoughts on that matter.
I personally am all for semi auto, and can't even really remember a game that I used full auto at.
I build high speed probably more than anything else. Mainly due to customer requests, so how they use it is up to them. My guns have gone through all sorts of phases and reconfigurations. My CQB gun is a DSG running around 330 with .20s, and locked to semi only. And due to the selector alignment, the second fire mode isn't even really accessible. But if it is accessed, I believe it is set to 2 round burst. The gun itself is capable of probably close to 50 +/-3 rps or so on an 11.1v, but as it over spins and double cycles on 11.1 I prefer to run 7.4v until I put a stronger spring in it.
And honestly, a nice quality and decent size 7.4v is really all that is needed for any build in my opinion. Low electrical stress, generally kinder to the internals, and offers better response than most 9.6v with a not-over-the-top ROF.
Touching back on high ROF with tuning and building for trigger response, there are a few was to achieve great response, while still retaining different rates of fire.
-The well known combo of low ratio gears and high torque motor. Offers great snappy trigger response, and a moderate ROF around 25-35rps(based on use with an 11.1) depending on the setup.
-The more recently popular method of hugh ratio gears with high speed motors. These setups have been found to have similar trigger response to the high torque/low ratio combo. Additionally, have been found to be more effecient and with less voltage spikes in comparison. ROF again can vary.
- Programable precocking. Can be combined with any of the previously mentioned methods or a stock configuration for desired response. And such, can also retain a lower ROF, but have fantastic response.
Many of the different factors depend on the internal setup and tuning.
I am probably a bit off topic, but wanted to address the items that caught my interest so far in this thread.
EDIT:
A little more that I wanted to add.
Accuracy is all about consistency(bore quality, shot-to-shot) and matching the cylinder volume to the barrel volume for the bb weight being used.
Also, with shortening a barrel, you likely dabble unintentionally with overvoluming and joule creep.
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Not at all, ROF is the topic and this is spot on;)
Actually very interesting stuff to me, mostly because like you mentioned I dig the idea of making sub guns useful in some manner beyond just plain being cool;) Much like making assault guns semi auto, to make support guns useful in their own right. I also agree on the FPS side of things, when I think of CQB I generally air on the side of stock TM levels or less. I'm a big fan of AEP's especially with some mods, they make excellent close quarters guns and you don't hurt people at those levels. I've often used my G18c up close where I wouldn't have used a long gun, or in game types where your a traitor guys who play with me have become accustomed to getting shot close with my 18c;) Last game we played I was taken "prisoner" well while he had his gun on me, I drew and put my 18c to his chin(not that I'd have shot him in the chin or touch distance. But it started a conversation and that conversation eventually ended with me shooting him at contact distance in the plate carrier, and me taking a round from an AK nearby to my plate carrier, and basically everyone in the situation being shot. But that same move I'd have been much more reluctant to pull with anything but an AEP. Maybe a springer, but something low FPS.
On the ROF front though a buddy was over in my shop tonight so we could do some testing. While we sat around BS'ing afterwards we talked about a bunch of things in this same vein. Since we both love the fast trigger response but he likes the full auto as well and I'm less interested in that.
I am curious though since you mentioned it pre-cocking. This is something I've always been interested in, well since the TM PSG1 came out or I became aware of it's pre-cock mechanism. What do you think of the reliability of that type of system? I've always been curious to try that since it seems it would solve my want for trigger response, but it also seems like it would be hard on virtually everything staying under stress most of the way back. I'll admit I considered it for high FPS builds which really would be less than ideal for stress and that's the reason I never went back to trying it. But now I'm curious what you've seen for reliability of that sort of system. Since that might solve my issues with my stubby and want for quick trigger response;)
Take care!
Luke
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I myself haven't dabbled too much into precocking, as the vast majority of my builds don't really even need it. But with the TM PSG-1, that is a mechanical precocking feature, and as I have yet to actually work on a PSG-1, I am not all to clear on how it is achieved. But with any high stress pre-cocking, you will want some decently reinforced internals, such as a full metal rack piston, some solid gears, solid anti reversal latch, and a strong motor, as when powering up, it is trying to turn over the system at its most stressful point. Again, all these factors can be adjusted with the adjustment of internal components. Higher ratio gears will fare much better with pre-cocking as it lessens the required torque to turn over.
And having modded my AEP so far to accept Lipos, it is getting closer to where I want it, but I am really excited to build it once I can find a neo magnet motor with a decent endbell for it. I already have $190 of internal parts for it, only a PDI barrel and deans installed. And just going from the AEP 7.2v battery to a 7.4v 300mah 45-90c, the performance is pretty similar, but will be much more reliable I would think due to the general performance of lipos. And that's just the battery that I have to fit in the gun for a low profile. I am also thinking of rigging up some sort of deans to the bottom rear of the grip to be able to run a line to an external battery, with a way to secure the deans from separating as well. ( I have run my CQB M4 as a 'pistol' with a similar setup, and had to keep reconnecting my connectors) Would make for an interesting CQB primary, as that is what I am going for in the build.
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I use precocking on my btc spectre in my 416 when I can remember to activate it. With riot 10:1s, frankentorque, a precocking the only limit to how fast it can fire semi auto is how fast you can pull the trigger.
I haven't kept up with airsoft mechanics much over the last year or so, so I wasn't aware of any trend towards high speed motors with high ratio gears. Have you experimented with it yet?
As for batteries, I have a couple 7.4s but never use them. While I'm sure any gun can be set up to be effective with them upping the voltage is an easy shortcut to faster trigger response and with a mosfet there really is nothing to worry about.
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My CQB M4 currently has Seigetek 20:1 spur and sector with an 8 tooth DSG, paired with a ZCI balanced motor at the moment. I cant accurately measure the ROF, but i want to say its around 50 with 11.1v. Though I believe some of the big names on Airsoft Teching Q&A on Facebook have the 20:1 DSG with a 10 TPA motor and are in the area of 65 rps. They had that side by side with a 10:1 DSG of similar performance and measured the amp draw and other electrical quantities.
I have tried both trends, and probably like the high torque/low ratio a bit better. Though I am very satisfied with the outcome of my personal 20:1 DSG (aside from the over spin. With a Spectre, that can easily be dealt with, but I prefer to deal with such issues mechanically as opposed to electronically)
Like you last mentioned, pretty much for any stock gun, a mosfet and using 11.1 is a big improvement on response and rate of fire by easy means. (as in not dabbling too much with the internals)
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Wow who even makes a 10 TPA motor? Or is it custom wound? When I stopped paying attention everyone was still using 20+ TPA armatures.
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10 TPA I believe is in the G&P 170 or 180 Satan/Devil Jet. One of the two.
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I'm probably one of the more hesitant folks in terms of tech, but from the last few times I have played in the past 2 years, I have a few thoughts to make.
- The rise of semi auto only has naturally been responded to with these faster trigger responses or rof builds, but I also feel that the issue of overshooting has either remained the same or increased in response.
- I would honestly now prefer getting hit with a single burst than by someone whose semi auto results in me feeling like I just got hosed down by a SAW.
- Regarding smgs, I would probably endorse being allowed full auto within a certain fps limit, perhaps as long as the replica in question doesn't have a hicap. I think it delves into whether it also be limited to number of magazines as well. For example, myself with my bizon replica and one hilariously sized magazine versus a person with a dedicated mp5 setup with more magazines and means of swapping between them/reloading. How would that feel from the viewpoint of an opposing player who is semi only with their typical ar replica?
I do for the most part appreciate the semi auto system, but I feel that more kinks have to be ironed out if the goal is to have a "balanced" game mindset versus a "steamroller" mindset that at times has shown itself at games.
TLDR: I feel like I have seen much more overshooting in the past few years than when I started out, and I am too technically inept to understand things to find an ideal balance.
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Over shooting is honestly up to the player. The platform is capable, but the player enables. Moderation and respect are key, but I agree with the rise as opposed to way back.
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I'd agree even with full auto being common at our games with the rise of high ROF in general it means getting shot more whether its on semi or auto. I think the semi auto rule makes sense but like you said with the ability to shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger that changes the balance again. I wonder if an ammo cap or limit might be the answer because at least that would limit the total output and make guys more selective with their shooting. Makes me want smarter guns with more field based software control ;)
Luke
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I think imposing a semi-auto only rule is the only way to combat the sort of high ROF abuses that have become common with high-end AEGs and HPA systems. Not only is semi-auto only more realistic, but it also helps to create more dimensionality in the game where teams have to think more about how to employ their SAWs and MGs. I like the trend of having different weapon systems on the field from standard rifles to SAWs/MGs to GLs firing TAG rounds to pea grenades and mortars.
Having come over from paintball waaayy back in 2006, I saw how high ROF was starting to ruin that hobby. The trend for years had been faster and faster guns and while ROF had increased, the cost of entry for those high ROF platforms had come way down due to guns like the Smart Parts Ion and easily accessible "ramping" fire modes. Airsoft has largely been free of this "arms race" because everyone has always had the ability to fire in fully-automatic with a decent ROF. It's only been since the introduction of HPA platforms that we've seen buzz-saw level rates of fire. Sure, DSG guns are out there, but were never super common.
I'm not arguing against HPA platforms. I love all three of mine and don't own any AEGs any more. But I do think semi-auto only is the way to go.
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I've been thinking allot about this whole thing and relating to it the whole ruining the hobby element of various things within airsoft. And further whether I'm contributing to it if I'm honest. The reason in my case is long range shooting more so than ROF, but the same principle applies or is along the same lines. When I started playing again most of my guns were 400fps and under builds from way back in the day and it took allot to get them back on track and fully functional again. But I also built out my bolt gun since I always wanted to try sniping and that was the reason behind the purchase years before I just never got around to upgrading since the interim years I hadn't played. None the less I built out something that could shoot 100+ yards took a while but it was done. And afterwards I noticed an uptick in velocity at our games, guys who normally were shooting 400fps all of a sudden started pushing that further. Then I went ahead and built out my M16 which also shoots very long ranges, it's basically a semi auto sniper rifle running in the 550fps range as well. This allowed that long range combined with a quicker fire rate. Which again seemed to push guys further that direction more commonly. And I'm not saying I'm purely responsible for that change, or that it was in response to my builds it might have happened anyways. But it seems like it was related.
Now the point of this, is that several guys have moved that direction and had various issues much like high ROF guns. They aren't typically that reliable as a platform especially compared to stock FPS/ROF builds. They can be, but often times they just break down more often. Which takes more time and money to repair etc. So some of those guys who may have built stuff to respond to things I built haven't been playing as often and I wonder if that's also part of the problem. IE as the arms race continues whether it's in ROF or FPS that you see a dropping off of guys who either don't have the time/money to compete at those levels or don't have the patience or generally get irritated that things aren't reliable at those levels.
So that's my theory of sorts and it applies to ROF or FPS. But in the same token my own 2 cents is that I like the classes of the system. IE I like long range shooting, and it plays to my patience now that I'm older on the field. As well I'm not much for pushing up and assault, I can do it but it's really not my normal role. I tend to hang back and shoot long range, use concealment much more often etc. But I think some guys might see that shot come in from long range and think hey he's got an advantage. But the reality is while yes I do at that 65-110 yard range, once I get in under 65 yards the advantage tips fast in the direction of a normal AEG. So it makes me wonder if maybe the class roles need to be cleanly separated and further taught and understood by players. The reason I say that is I don't think guys realize how many headaches can go into higher end builds and the disadvantages of said setups. If they did it might help slow/stop the common arms race mentality. And I'm not saying stop guys from taking on a new role or type of play. If they want to play higher ROF or higher FPS that's fine it's really up to all of us to determine our play style. But I guess the question is do we the players somewhat driving that arms race have a responsibility to do something different to help keep the sport fair and fun for those with lesser time or money.
Hope that makes sense, bit of an essay but I'm curious what other guys think about this sort of thing as well as ideas on how to keep things fun. Since that really plays into the ROF stuff.
Luke