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Author Topic: State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.  (Read 23290 times)

Gimpalong

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Re: State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 09:15:09 AM »
This is a great post and I think it really sums up a lot of the issues that the community is or has been experiencing.

It's not just one factor - it's many different factors.

Social media fragmentation, regionalism, competition between fields, player preferences, demographics, etc.

As such, there's no one size fits all solution. I think we've been really focused on providing a technological solution to the issue of having no central meeting place for the community - a focus on returning players to the forum or combating fragmentation in some way. But that only addresses one part of the issue.

It's great to have conversations identifying the issues that we face. And we've had a lot of these conversations. But at some point a set of goals, road map or general plan is probably going to be required which then begs the question - who is actually in a position to push the community in one direction or another?




luke213

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Re: State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 09:22:49 AM »
Honestly I think the only guys with any power so to speak are the hosts. They dictate where and when games are posted and where they are hosted. In essence without them the community as a whole would not exist. Of course other guys would start hosting but then they are driving that part.

I think to start its best to get all the information hashed out then figure out a plan of attack so to speak on how to accomplish at least some of the goals and keep things moving forward.

Take care

Luke

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Canto

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Re: State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2017, 06:39:20 PM »
I don't know if that's entirely true though. The hosts will only do what the player base wants them to do in that regard. When you want to plan a scenario or I suppose we could call it a "light milsim" and if no players say they are attending a scenario event, it's hard to do one. And can discouraging for others when planning future ones.

At least in my prospective as a host for this part, I've attached a map of the standard playing area at Hole In The Wall Paintball that I've used. I'm considering upgrading it for events in the future as well.




free image hoster for websites


When I'm planning a scenario event, maybe one objective will have two parts: "Your primary mission is to assault and raid your enemy's base and transport anything found to your base."

But you also should guard your own team's base, because what is the enemy team doing? Their objective might be to raid your base. Or perhaps a squad of them come across yours and find it abadonded...

If no one signs up ahead of time for planning (numbers) or shows up, this is hard to pull off.

But this also requires preset/pre-decided teams/factions ahead of time. So you have to divide people some how, the most common is to use uniform (not gear) colors or armbands. I don't like armbands personally.

Split people into 2-3 teams based on uniform colors, the most common is to use a green vs. tan split.

If you make the uniform requirements too strict, people may not be able to attend or may not want to attend. So you can't plan an event with only one team, so if know one shows up or signs up ahead of time, you can't plan/run one.

In terms of hosting, simply put for myself the playing area is too large for complex obejectives with too few people or an imbalance in player numbers.

Coldwave

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Re: State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2017, 07:27:42 PM »
Teams were a huge part of what kept the community close. Getting back to that mentality will be the best for the community.
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luke213

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Re: State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2017, 07:32:22 PM »
What I'm getting at mostly as far as hosts is where they post IE do they manage their posts here on the forum, on facebook or both. I guess what I'm saying is that one way that things could be done and I'm not saying this is the best idea etc, just snowballing. If hosts as a whole posted events on Facebook, then disabled comments and linked to the forum. Then they could manage who was coming etc via the forums and organize teams etc in one location rather than having to manage two places.

Again not saying that's the right or wrong way to handle it, but if all the hosts decided to use the forums as their primary organization for events then players would pretty much have to go where the hosts go.

I think though that's not probably the best way to handle it, but that's the first example of what I meant that popped into my mind. But the event hosts have control over where they post their events be it facebook or forums etc. So in that sense they can to a degree control the userbase in a manner that no one else involved can do, because that information is required to be able to attend those events.

On the team selection etc completely agree, in my hosting the hardest thing is planning and balancing teams. And like you I absolutely hate arm bands and avoid them whenever possible. I don't think that MIA as a whole is going to answer that question however I do have a suggestion of something you can try that I've been doing the last maybe year or two now on my own events. What I do rather than green vs. tan is camo vs. civilian. I design the scenario such that it's some sort of military force against either a militia or civilian team of some sort. By doing that I eliminate camo issues with which camo is allowed, basically if it's a pattern it's allowed on the camo team. If it's not a pattern it's allowed on the civy team, so basically anyone alive has clothing that is capable of being the civy side of things. So you assign or have guys sign up, split the teams and a short bit before the game check the numbers and players and see if you need to bump some guys. Also pick some players that you know and are good normal players and tell them to bring both camo and civy to the game. That way day of you can bounce them to balance the teams in a pinch. If you don't have enough guys to bounce and balance the team you can then plan a little leeway into the scenario in the form of respawns etc to balance the teams a bit more as well.

And again not that I know more than anyone, I certainly don't. But with my semi casual player base up here along with allot of newer players without allot of gear. That split of camo vs. civilian clothes means I can always get guys on both teams and make up a good game even with guys who only own a gun and don't have any camo or gear. Should also be noted that of course like usual you'll want to balance skill to a certain degree, and typically out here there is a pretty even split once I get done and makes for a fairly even game.

Take care!

Luke
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darcness

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Re: State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2017, 08:26:28 PM »
Glad to see this post gaining some more traction!  This is exactly what we need to do if we want to improve things.
 Canto I don't think I could have said things any better myself.  You hit it out of the park with your reply.

I agree that there are many issues with the airsoft scene here in Michigan.  The community needs to rebuild and regrow.  As Canto said, most likely from the ground up.  I think that responsibility falls not only on the hosts and organizers as Luke has said, but ALSO on the veteran player base.  We've got to put aside our differences and just make airsoft enjoyable for EVERYONE who wants to play.  Obviously you can't cater to every individual, but you can create an overall welcoming and friendly atmosphere.  You can organize effectively.  You can work with others to bring about positive changes and that all translates into better airsoft for all involved. 

Like others have said, I don't know who can take up the mantle and run with this.  Maybe it doesn't have to be an individual, but all of us just making a difference in whatever way we can.  I've tried to help Luke out a bit with getting people to check out the forums and trying to get some discussion going on the Facebook page about the state of airsoft in Michigan.  It's my small way of helping in a way which I can.  I think if we get enough people doing that, we can move in the right direction.

Edit:  One thing I really think we need to look at is the fragmentation or exclusiveness seen on the field.  I understand that you want to run with your team and most likely hang out with them outside of the game.  However look for lone players or people who look new and at least engage them in a conversation.  I saw a good example of this at the 82nd rec game a week ago.  A new player was really excited about a kill he got and tried to talk to a more veteran player about it.  The veteran player shrugged it off like it was nothing and continued to walk away.  This is just an example of what could have been a good experience that turned into a missed opportunity.  Again, we gotta do some work if we want to get there. 

CopperRiver

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Re: State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2017, 11:13:27 PM »
So I'll give my two cents on this all;

My name is Colin Redner, I'm the president of AAMTU way up here in Houghton. I’ve met quite a few of you, whether at OP Lion Claws, Fading Light, or on UP Airsoft. I suppose my best link to all this is my own experience as an event organizer; we run two OPs each year that we must structure to meet the epitome of the MI playerbase. We have the perfect playerbase, with players of all skill levels and experiences from across the Midwest. The issue is, our playerbase is limited by the size of the UP in general; as such, we structure our Ops to meet all player varieties.

For example, to follow up on Lucas’s comment on teams we will be offering FOUR teams, and it solves allot of the issues I see many of you discussing. For example, for our Op coming up in October, we have the following teams: US/NATO (Tan Camo), RU/CN (Green-base camo), Contractor (Tan plainclothes with black shirt/polo), and civilian (normal civilian clothes).

The biggest issue this fixes is uniform requirements; all players (MilSim West players to 2nd-time players) can find their place in a team, with like-skilled players and tasks. I can send the two camo teams to engage in higher-skill firefights (long-range, forest, flanking, etc.), the two newer teams to fight in easier firefights (CQB areas, buildings, etc.), and then mix them all in the medium-skill areas.  This lets everyone have  the opportunity to play with and against players of the same skill, without sectioning them out.

The other issue this solves is of team-balance. In 2-team Ops, one will always be more skilled than the other (Green > multicam, multicam > civilians, generally). By sectioning into four teams, it allows me to dynamically modify team balances. For example, lets say Green and Civilian are allied at the beginning of the game, versus the allied Tan and Contractor. If Tan is doing too well, Green “buys out” the contractors, and turns the tide of the game while maintaining the storyline. I still usually maintain an Opfor vs Blufor pattern, but I can modify who is on what team with a simple radio call.

EDIT: As for social media, we exist mostly locally, although have been branching out on FB recently; It's simply a location that allot of our playerbase is already familiar with. We will hopefully be getting more involved on here in the near future.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 05:14:09 PM by CopperRiver »

Canto

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Re: State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2017, 11:42:09 PM »
A solution to the uniform-skill level problem is to lump civilian clothing (street clothes) into an already existing category, in a 2-3 team game. It also allows newer players that might not have a full uniform a chance to play a larger game.

Multicam is kind of a pain in the ass to classify. Too many people have it or use it, so much so it may skew a whole faction for an event. It's not quite green and it's not quite tan. It's a great uniform and an effective one (Yes, I even have some) for our climate. But a bit of a pain.

A typical green vs. tan breakdown could be:

Green: M81 Woodland, MARPAT, Woodland DPM, Tiger Stripe, OD Green, and Alpenflage.
Tan: Three Color Desert, Six Color Desert, Arid MARPAT, ACU, ABU, Black, Urban, and Contractor.

You could put street clothing and multicam on either faction really.

Copper River, PM sent.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 11:49:07 PM by Canto »

CopperRiver

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Re: State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2017, 12:06:44 AM »
Well, by splitting up the playerbase into the 4 separate teams, it unlocks that dynamic ability to morph the battlefield as a game progresses. It is a yet unproven idea, but on paper is seems very reasonable to me. As well, the 4 teams (other than the issue with multiglam = tan or =green) seem very distinct from each other. I realize this isn't the conventional way of thinking about airsoft events, but I hope that by the end of the month I'll be able to tell you whether it worked.

I do not plan on making those team-changing movements much or at all, but I simply am leaving it unlocked for the possible fix for an uneven team balance. If the teams are balanced, then the civilians will be allied with green the whole day, and the contractors will be allied with tan the whole day. It's just an extra method of balance.

As a correction; I did not intend to be accusatory; my predecessor painted MIA as something it is not, and I am merely trying to reconnect AAMTU with MIA. I believe your regulations are fair and reasonable, we have simply modified them to better meet our needs.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 05:14:49 PM by CopperRiver »

luke213

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Re: State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2017, 10:29:48 AM »
My concern with the 4 teams thing is that everytime I've seen anything like that done it leads to confusion on the player side of who's friend or foe, which is difficult in general in the field to tell sometimes. Which increases friendly fire which also will depend on the players. Just as an example one of the last games at STFU(Skandia group), they had a faction like that, that could be hired, but in the start of the game they were supposed to be neutral. Well they took me hostage of sorts, which I drew my glock and put it under Kris' chin and we had a mexican standoff between two of my guys and the "neutral" contractor etc team. Everyone got shot, but being the team leader my first command after spawning was shoot on sight for anyone on that team until further notice. So each time we got near them whether they were trying to communicate or otherwise we just steamrolled them and did our objective. Basically in my view not far off of what would typically occur in a real life scenario because if they killed two of your force immediately. Well they are hostile and no longer going to be allowed to have that opportunity again. Later after much negotiation I did hire them to hit a gun truck. But let me tell ya the negotiations were they were completely unarmed, and all of my guys had guns on them the entire time. Probably didn't help that I showed up that day with a migraine and wasn't in the mood to deal with that sort of craziness;) But that's how it shook out that time, and it didn't go as planned. Not saying it won't for you guys it might and hopefully pending I can swing it with two weekends back to back I'm going to come up and see;)

My own two cents though any sort of floating team assortment where allies vary is going to cause more confusion than necessary, especially without a long scenario with allot of players. I'll say it may be possible or workable in something like a 3 day game, where the allies don't change often or at setup portions of the story line. Not sure, but I'm leery based on what I've seen in the past and how common friendly fire tends to be in general;)

Luke
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Canto

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Re: State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2017, 10:38:18 AM »
I've done a 3 faction game before, using the standard green-tan breakdown. I seperated all the uniforms that were not green or tan into the 3rd team (ACU, ABU, Urban, Contractor, etc) and put multicam with tan since so many people have it. I used it before with one of the first War on Drugs events I did a few years back; two drug cartels and a counter narcotics unit. For Hole in the Wall at least it worked well, gave each of the teams their own ridge (North, South, Southeast/Heartbreak) and everyone had their own base and defendable area.

Either way, the point of the uniforms debate is accessability. Make the requirements too strict and not enough people come or people might be turned away. Too loose and people will be confused and there won't be much of a game.

Troutzor

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Re: State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2017, 10:14:58 PM »
This thread has sort of drifted a little bit, but I'll throw my thoughts out there too.

After playing at MCA this past weekend, and having played at several events in the metro area over the summer I also have noticed a change in the player base.

1. There is a new generation of airsofters: This is fantastic! This means our sport is growing! This new player base is growing around the aforementioned casual walk on venues like MCA.  A lot of these young players have never even attended an organized rec game or scenario, they are fairly uninvolved in the community, they may be on Facebook, but they're not here.

2. Airsoft Etiquette is disappearing:  There is an increasing level of ignorance/arrogance amongst the newest generation. I believe to some extent, this is where the unfriendliness is coming from, this is why disagreements breakout between teams. There is some tribal knowledge that hasn't spread to the new generation.  Things as simple as:

> Don't call out other players, because you think they're cheating; i.e. "CALL YOUR HITS A$$HOLE!" --Just tell a referee.
> Proper firearms handling practices.
> Engagement rules, playing safe, being considerate of other people
> "Ye Olde Good Sportsmanship"

3. New players are learning Airsoft from places other than the MIA community. Some of these new places choose to NOT adopt our practices and rules.  Lets face it; a lot of work went into the MIA Standards, a lot of though and trial and error, its tried and true at this point. While its every business owner's right to run their business how they see fit, it doesn't help the sense of community and continuity that MIA has set out to establish.

4. Us vs Them. The old guard versus the new.  Without calling out anyone, there is definitely tension between some field owners and the MIA community. Its been observed on multiple occasions on the Facebook group. I think this coincides with some of what we see in the above bullet points. Rather than working together its driving a wedge between these entities. Lets face it, some of these owners could care less. They've got this new generation of young players eating out of their hands. Who cares if it turns off some of us "Old Guys".

5. The Old Guard, or what is left of it, has moved on to the next stages of life. Myself, I've got a career, wife, baby, mortgage, etc. Most of "us" have that now. Its okay, but it means we only get out once or twice a month (sometimes less). Its hard to lead the charge with so many things vying for attention, I don't think I need to explain any further.
(I must note however, I definitely have more money to allocate to hobbies now, but Time =/= Money.)

 
The community would benefit from outreach; new players need to be welcomed in. While its nice to reminisce about the "Old Days" or look inward for solutions, new players need to engage, they need to know we are here, and why.

I know this is easier said than done.
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Gimpalong

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Re: State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2017, 11:01:17 AM »
I think the MiA community has always been mis-understood by outsiders. Many people still think that MiA is a team or a select group rather than a community open to everyone in the State of Michigan. To be fair to that attitude, MiA insiders haven't always been willing to educate and guide; MiA has, in the past, been clique-ish and somewhat elitist. A lot of MiA regulars are also apt to attack field owners and hosts pretty harshly rather than engage and try to correct bad behavior. Take a look at Futureball, for example. That field has gotten a terrible reputation in recent years - part deservedly and part undeservedly. To the point where people say "yeah, don't go to that field" whenever it comes up. The same thing could be said of Hell Survivors but for different reasons - the owners always seem to screw over event hosts.

A big difference between today and past years is that there are WAY more venues operated for airsoft. In the past, event hosts (like Team RAGE, the Hellfish, TFI, BTR, etc) would basically rent out a field for use. So someone would approach the management at Futureball or at Hell Survivors and schedule a date for a big event, take pre-payments, pay the field and then host the big event. The host or the host's team would coordinate the game play, act as referees, etc. The field itself was basically getting paid to unlock the gates and provide access to the land - nothing more.

Today, that model does not necessarily hold true. Many fields, including both Futureball and Hell Survivors, have started to host their own weekly/monthly rec events. TC Paintball in my neck of the woods does the same thing - they publish a schedule of airsoft rec play events for the entire year and personnel from the field run everything. For major events, however, TC Paintball still turns to a local player to set up, promote and run the scenario event that they host a few times a year. So that's sort of a hybrid model.

The point here is that, in many places, there's been a shift away from an actual airsofter planning an event and coordinating with a field to a situation where a field is trying to capitalize on the availability of airsofters. So a paintball field, while their bread and butter will always be paintball, also wants to tap into the airsoft market for some extra cash. The result is a lot of little rec games, but no incentive to host anything bigger.

So, if a major goal is to have more "big games," scenario or milsim style events, then airsofters need to start picking up the mantle to host by engaging with field owners. This may be a opportunity for some of the new teams in the state (looking at you RR313) to get out and start to host events themselves.

My suggestion would be to get some buy in from three or four event hosts (for example, Mosin of the Bastards @Mosin , Pagan of the Suicide Kings @Pagan , Yutanti of RR313 @Yutani-313 , Canton of FAH @Canto , Deputy from Traverse City @deputy865 ) to put together an event series. This event series would host a spring event, a summer event and a fall event at three separate fields in different parts of the state. The members of these groups could then hype up these events, provide additional educational information to help newer players prepare, etc, etc. These events would serve to initiate newer players into the "big game"/scenario style of play and get them ready to participate in bigger national level events or more serious milsim events like Operation Ambient/Fading Light or MSW. As Yutanti pointed out above, a lot of players are simply unprepared for bigger events, but who can blame them? A lot of these players have never had the opportunity to do anything beyond rec play - so they're still learning. Since Blacksheep and LC are basically no longer active in MI (for various reasons we don't need to get into) a lot of these new players never get an opportunity to have a "big game" experience that could contribute to them learning the "big game" ropes.

Quote
4. Us vs Them. The old guard versus the new.  Without calling out anyone, there is definitely tension between some field owners and the MIA community.

And, you know, field hosts are entitled to do whatever they want. MiA was never really intended to sanction fields or to stop hosts from setting their own rules. It's better to have dialogue with fields rather than tear them down. Again, speaking for my neck of the woods, the guy who runs TC Paintball doesn't know airsoft. He doesn't understand that paintball formats don't necessarily work. And the airsofters up here have tried to work with him to fix things, get him to chrono properly, to create game formats that work for airsoft, etc. But it's a constant back and forth. @deputy865.

Quote
5. The Old Guard, or what is left of it, has moved on to the next stages of life. Myself, I've got a career, wife, baby, mortgage, etc. Most of "us" have that now. Its okay, but it means we only get out once or twice a month (sometimes less). Its hard to lead the charge with so many things vying for attention, I don't think I need to explain any further.
(I must note however, I definitely have more money to allocate to hobbies now, but Time =/= Money.)

This is me exactly. I have time to play maybe 4 times a year... once or twice a month would result in my wife murdering me.

The Old Guard also needs to take off their rose colored glasses every now and again and actually look around. The community we had in the past existed at that time due to some unique circumstances that no longer hold true. We've got a new set of players and a new community to work with and our focus should be on shaping that community as it exists. All the crying and moaning about "things were better in ye olden days, get off my lawn!" doesn't endear us old folks to the younger crowd.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 11:15:40 AM by Gimpalong »

luke213

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Re: State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2017, 01:52:10 PM »
The Old Guard also needs to take off their rose colored glasses every now and again and actually look around. The community we had in the past existed at that time due to some unique circumstances that no longer hold true. We've got a new set of players and a new community to work with and our focus should be on shaping that community as it exists. All the crying and moaning about "things were better in ye olden days, get off my lawn!" doesn't endear us old folks to the younger crowd.

Well I think this is one thing I'll say my own 2 cents on. I personally don't see the old MIA as the perfect solution to organization in Michigan. I can poke holes in it all day long, between overmoderation(BigMack and several others), and the platform was honestly terrible even for the time(proboards). So there were allot of technology limitations, as well as mod/admin problems, user problems etc etc. By no means perfect, and to a certain degree not better or worse than what we have today, some ways better some ways worse.

But that all said I can do the same right now with MIA and poke holes in things we're doing wrong, or ways the technology isn't working. But and again just from a tech side of things forums are still a far superior platform for this type of communication. Without digging into it deeply, google crawling, and organization. Going no further than that it owns facebook. Now before anyone takes out the pitchforks, facebook has some very nice and easy functional features. And for allot of stuff it's honestly maybe the best solution right now. Connecting with friends, etc it's super handy. Advertising functionality goes far beyond other social platforms like Twitter. I could run through a bunch of things it does well and back and forth with plus's and minus's on each platform.

But the community that is MIA is really not a host, it's a group of players with an interest and knowledge of airsoft. And much like Proboards, it's a knowledgebase of data, tons of it. I still go and look things up, yesterday while digging around on the net looking for the release date of the TM M733, couldn't find it. Thought I remembered it, found it on the old proboards site. That information is to a degree one of the most important functions of MIA. As an organization we've virtually outlasted any of our other contemporaries, and generally retained all that information even if currently it's sitting there locked on proboards. At least it's not being deleted or removed. Here on the new site going forward we control that information, and say 10 years from now it will still be available for the next generation of players.

To me that's the most important factor but it's also sidelined by the fact that the information itself needs to be here for that function to work.

Luke
xaos - "298,000 yen for a complete gun. How much is that in real money?"

Gimpalong

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Re: State of the community and ideas to improve MIA going forward.
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2017, 02:45:43 PM »
But the community that is MIA is really not a host, it's a group of players with an interest and knowledge of airsoft.

I guess this is where I struggle.
What are we trying to do with this conversation?

Is this conversation about getting people back to the forums and participating in the knowledge base?
Is this conversation about increasing the number of a "big game"/scenario/milsim events?
Is this conversation about addressing the fragmentation of the community and figuring out a way to bring people together?
Is this conversation about trying to foster a tighter, less antagonistic community?

Speaking for myself, "improving the community" means having more large, complex games and getting people to attend them. I am generally unconcerned about the forum because 1) the data is archived and searchable and 2) because people aren't going to come back to using forums. I don't think we can solve the community fragmentation problem other than by getting people out to more events and having them meet other players. I do think that we can have a less antagonistic, hyper-aggressive community by doing a better job of setting examples and by creating a particular ethos among players that promotes respect.

I think we're really good at identifying the issues that exist, but less good at setting goals or constructing a road map of how to get where we want to be after identifying where that is.