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Messages - Canto

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1
Airsoft Events / Re: SCN: Operation: Little Tail (WoD4) - 04/27/2019 @ HITW
« on: February 19, 2019, 10:39:58 AM »
Roster Updated! Currently Sitting at: 13 Projected Participants

Salvadoran National Police: 2
Sinaloa Cartel: 1
Los Zetas Cartel: 10

Just a reminder for all participants, to be listed on the official roster for this event, you must send us a message with the following information: Name, Desired Faction, and Number of Players Attending.

Salvadoran National Police: M81 Woodland, MARPAT, Woodland DPM, Tiger Stripe, OD Green, and Alpenflage.
Sinaloa Cartel: Multicam, Three Color Desert, Six Color Desert, and Arid MARPAT.
Los Zetas Cartel: ACU, ABU, Black, Urban, Contractor, and Civilian (Street Clothing).

* Additional information such as if players intend on camping, eating lunch, or bringing items for a swap meet is very helpful.

Walk-On Registration: $30.00 Per Person, Cash Only.

To be eligible for the prepay discount for this event. Players must send the $20.00 registration fee via PayPal to: armoryairsoft@gmail.com.

- Please use the sending money to family or friends option.
- All prepays are due by 03/20/2019.
- Please include all above mentioned registration information.
- Please mark all prepays "Op: Little Tail Registration".
- Please print your PayPal payment conformation and bring it to registration! This is proof you prepaid!

* The more people that sign up and are officially on the roster encourages others to attend. Please sign-up to help spread the word and bring in more players.

2
Airsoft Discussion / Re: Airsoft while in college
« on: February 18, 2019, 02:32:09 PM »
I agree with Orion116. I would talk with the college public safety office and see. It's a touchy issue nowadays with the political climate and all.

3
Walk-On/Open Play Airsoft (SW Michigan Rec. Game)
Sunday, February 24th, 2019

Open Play Airsoft ~ No Uniform Regulations
All Experience Levels Welcome ~ All Replica Types Welcome

All participants are asked to at least provide some notification of attendance, either by a Facebook message to our page or by posting on the Michigan Airsoft forums in the event thread. Without information, it is difficult for us as hosts to operate and host an event properly. Clicking the "Going" button on Facebook does not help us.

Hole in the Wall Paintball ~ 24262 66th Street, Bangor, Michigan 49013

Useful Links: {Field Waiver}, {To Bring Checklist}, {Driving Directions}, {Weather Conditions}

Ages: 14+
Participant Fee: $10.00 (Walk On, Cash Only! No Credit Card Sales On Site).

- Signature of parent or guardian required for minor participants.
- Walk on payment and registration only.
- Waivers will be available at game registration.

Game Times:

Registration/Chronograph Open: 10:00 AM.
Game Start: 10:00 AM.
Event End: 5:00 PM (Weather and Lighting Applicable).

* Registration and game times adjusted for longer daylight.
** Please be prompt or at least on time with arrivals, late arriving players delay the game and decrease play time.
*** We are operating on shortened winter hours, if no one shows by 2:00 PM, more than likely we will be closing early.

Uniform Requirements:

No uniform regulations of any kind will be enforced for this game. Teams will be based on day of balancing by the use of base uniform colors, armbands, or player selected options.

Eye Protection Regulations:

- ANSI Z87.1 rated full seal eye protection only, no exceptions.
- ANSI rated, full seal goggles or shooting glasses are permitted.
- 'Full Seal' is defined as a foam band separating the lens of the goggle from the frame portion and the face of the user.
- Mesh goggles, lab safety goggles, safety glasses, etc will not be permitted under any circumstances.
- Lower face protection (Mesh Lowers, Mouth Guards, Etc) do not apply to this.

Ammunition-Weapon Regulations:

Handguns, Shotguns, Sub machine Guns, and Assault Rifles: 1,500 Rounds.
- All magazine (Low, Mid, or High Capacity) types allowed.

Support Weapons: 2,500 Rounds.
- All magazine (Low, Mid, High Capacity, Box, or Drum) types allowed.

Sniper Rifle and Designated Marksman: 500 Rounds.
- Low or Mid Capacity Magazines Only.

Rocket Launchers, Landmines, IED's, Etc: Undetermined (Normally Allowed).
- Prior field approval only.

Sound Grenades: Allowed.
- Kill Radius: 15 feet.

Smoke Grenades (Hot and Cold Burn): Allowed.
- Allowed with common sense use (if it's starting a fire, put it out).
- Don't ruin it for everyone else (lifetime bans will be issued for reckless use).

- Participants may leave the event at any point to retrieve additional quantities of ammunition, etc stored in other locations (staging area, vehicles, etc).

Engagement Limits:

1 - 350.0 FPS (0.01j - 1.07j) - Arms length engagement.
350.1  - 410.0 FPS (1.08j - 1.49j) - 20 foot engagement limit.
410.1 - 500.0 FPS (1.50j - 2.32j) - 50 foot engagement limit (Permanent Semi-Auto or Bolt Action Only).
500.1 - 550.1 FPS (2.33j - 2.69j) - Bolt action replicas only.
550 FPS+ (2.7j+) - Prohibited under all circumstances.

- Velocities will be measured using the weight of BB being used.
- All replicas will be issued 'chronograph' tags after being registered and measured. These must remain on the replica for the entire event.
*Participants are encouraged to remove all chronograph tags from previous events/games.

Bang Kills:

- No bang kills of any kind will be used for this event.

Knife/Bayonet/Touch Kills:

- Participants may opt to use a simple 'Touch Kill' to quietly disable an opponent. Players must say "Knife Kill" to the opposing party and physically touch the other.
- Participants may use a replica knife/bayonet to also conduct a kill using a physical touch.
- Do not jab, physically assault, or use undue amounts of force.
- Real-Steel knives and bayonets are prohibited under all circumstances.

Surrender Rules:

- Participants may opt to 'Surrender' to an engaging opponent at any point during the event. Players that choose to do so must return to their respective respawn location, if applicable to game type.

Barrel Bag/Barrel Plug Regulations:

- All participants must have a barrel bag or a muzzle plug on or in their replica when out of gameplay.
- Barrel bags are available at paintball registration for $7.00 each.

Zero Tolerance Policy:

The following infractions will result in immediate removal from field property and a permanent ban from field property. Law enforcement may be used if required to remove problematic players.

- Theft of field or company property.
- Vandalism or destruction of property.
- Assault of participants, visitors, or field staff.
- Repeated removal of eye protection.
- Unsportsmanlike like conduct.

General Field Information:

- HPA fills are available on site. $5.00 for all day air fills, up to 2,500 PSI.
- CO2 fills are available on site. 9 oz - $1.00, 12 oz - $2.00, 20 oz - $3.00 , 24 oz - $4.00.
- Power outlets are available on location.
- Live firearms (real steel) are not permitted on field property.
- Not responsible for items or belongings that are lost, stolen, or damaged.

What To Bring Checklist:

- Full-Seal Eye Protection [Required].
- Barrel Bag or Muzzle Plug [Required].
- Airsoft Replica, Sidearm, and Magazines. [Required].
- Batteries, Charging Unit, and BB's [Required].
- Red 'Kill' Rag [Required].
- Camouflage or Uniform [Required].

- Potable water. [Highly Recommended].
- Green gas, propane, CO2 Powerlets, and Silicone Oil. [Highly Recommended].
- Canteen / Hydration Pack [Highly Recommended].
- Radio and Charging Unit [Highly Recommended].
- Spare Batteries [Highly Recommended].
- Extra Dry Clothing (Shirt, Pants, Socks) [Highly Recommended].
- Extra Dry Footwear [Highly Recommended].

All participants are asked to at least provide some notification of attendance, either by a Facebook message to our page or by posting on the Michigan Airsoft forums in the event thread. Without information, it is difficult for us as hosts to operate and host an event properly. Clicking the "Going" button on Facebook does not help us.

4
Airsoft Events / Re: SCN: Operation: Little Tail (WoD4) - 04/27/2019 @ HITW
« on: February 16, 2019, 04:51:25 PM »
Roster Updated! Currently Sitting at: 6 Projected Participants.

Salvadoran National Police: 2
Sinaloa Cartel: 0
Los Zetas Cartel: 3

Just a reminder for all participants, to be listed on the official roster for this event, you must send us a message with the following information: Name, Desired Faction, and Number of Players Attending.

Salvadoran National Police: M81 Woodland, MARPAT, Woodland DPM, Tiger Stripe, OD Green, and Alpenflage.
Sinaloa Cartel: Multicam, Three Color Desert, Six Color Desert, and Arid MARPAT.
Los Zetas Cartel: ACU, ABU, Black, Urban, Contractor, and Civilian (Street Clothing).

* Additional information such as if players intend on camping, eating lunch, or bringing items for a swap meet is very helpful.

Walk-On Registration: $30.00 Per Person, Cash Only.

To be eligible for the prepay discount for this event. Players must send the $20.00 registration fee via PayPal to: armoryairsoft@gmail.com.

- Please use the sending money to family or friends option.
- All prepays are due by 03/20/2019.
- Please include all above mentioned registration information.
- Please mark all prepays "Op: Little Tail Registration".
- Please print your PayPal payment conformation and bring it to registration! This is proof you prepaid!

* The more people that sign up and are officially on the roster encourages others to attend. Please sign-up to help spread the word and bring in more players.

5
Airsoft Events / Re: SCN: Operation: Little Tail (WoD4) - 04/27/2019 @ HITW
« on: February 14, 2019, 04:57:58 PM »
Just a reminder for all participants, to be listed on the official roster for this event, you must send us a message with the following information:

Name, Desired Faction, and Number of Players Attending.

Salvadoran National Police: M81 Woodland, MARPAT, Woodland DPM, Tiger Stripe, OD Green, and Alpenflage.

Sinaloa Cartel: Multicam, Three Color Desert, Six Color Desert, and Arid MARPAT.

Los Zetas Cartel: ACU, ABU, Black, Urban, Contractor, and Civilian (Street Clothing).

* Additional information such as if players intend on camping, eating lunch, or bringing items for a swap meet is very helpful.

The roster for this event will be published on the Michigan Airsoft web page in the "Op: Little Tail" event post.

Roster: https://www.miairsoft.org/index.php?topic=1856.0

Walk-On Registration: $30.00 Per Person, Cash Only.

To be eligible for the prepay discount for this event. Players must send the $20.00 registration fee via PayPal to: armoryairsoft@gmail.com.

- Please use the sending money to family or friends option.
- All prepays are due by 03/20/2019.
- Please include all above mentioned registration information.
- Please mark all prepays "Op: Little Tail Registration".
- Please print your PayPal payment conformation and bring it to registration! This is proof you prepaid!

6
Airsoft Events / Re: SCN: Operation: Little Tail (WoD4) - 04/27/2019 @ HITW
« on: February 11, 2019, 12:42:54 PM »
Just a reminder for all participants, to be listed on the official roster for this event, you must send us a message with the following information:

Name, Desired Faction, and Number of Players Attending.

Salvadoran National Police: M81 Woodland, MARPAT, Woodland DPM, Tiger Stripe, OD Green, and Alpenflage.

Sinaloa Cartel: Multicam, Three Color Desert, Six Color Desert, and Arid MARPAT.

Los Zetas Cartel: ACU, ABU, Black, Urban, Contractor, and Civilian (Street Clothing).

* Additional information such as if players intend on camping, eating lunch, or bringing items for a swap meet is very helpful.

The roster for this event will be published on the Michigan Airsoft web page in the "Op: Little Tail" event post.

Roster: https://www.miairsoft.org/index.php?topic=1856.0

Walk-On Registration: $30.00 Per Person, Cash Only.

To be eligible for the prepay discount for this event. Players must send the $20.00 registration fee via PayPal to: armoryairsoft@gmail.com.

- Please use the sending money to family or friends option.
- All prepays are due by 03/20/2019.
- Please include all above mentioned registration information.
- Please mark all prepays "Op: Little Tail Registration".
- Please print your PayPal payment conformation and bring it to registration! This is proof you prepaid!

7
Forum News / Re: MIA Facebook group
« on: February 03, 2019, 08:41:54 PM »


Well, it is official. After a more than 12 year run on Facebook, the Michigan Airsoft Facebook group has been deleted. Facebook has determined that what ever was reported (we still do not know) was in violation of their terms of service.

This is not the death of Michigan Airsoft by any means, it is only the removal of a linked Facebook group.

We will post further updates as they occur.

New Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/298018250858458/

- Canto

8
Projected Player Roster
As of February 19th, 2019

Projected Attendance: 15


Salvadoran National Police (Green Team) ( Total: 02 )

Uniforms: M81 Woodland, Woodland MARPAT, Woodland DPM, Tiger Stripe, OD Green, and Alpenflage.

Commanding Officer: Position Available
Executive Officer: Position Available
Medic 1: Position Available
Medic 2: Position Available
Medic 3: Position Available
Medic 4: Position Available

- Shaw, Jared
- Chamberlin, Brandon (FLAK)


Sinaloa Cartel (Tan Team) ( Total: 03 )

Uniforms: Multicam, Three Color Desert, Six Color Desert, and Arid MARPAT.

Commanding Officer: Joker
Executive Officer: Conman
Medic 1: Position Available
Medic 2: Position Available
Medic 3: Position Available
Medic 4: Position Available

- Tovar, Kody


Los Zetas Cartel (Grey/Black/Other Team) ( Total: 10 )

Uniforms: ACU, ABU, Black, Urban, Contractor, and Civilian (Street Clothing).

Commanding Officer: Grott, Nathan [1]
Executive Officer: Poth, Ryan [1]
Medic 1: Position Available
Medic 2: Position Available
Medic 3: Position Available
Medic 4: Position Available

- Ewbank, Nelson x 3
- Grott, Nathan [4]
- Poth, Ryan (Emo Hobo) [1]


Undecided (Total: 00)



All Staff-Moderators (In-Game/Ref/Off-Field)


- Conolly, John (Canto) (FLAK)
- Chamberlin, Brandon (FLAK)
- Ewbank, Nelson (FLAK)
- Workman, John (FLAK)
- Kraft, Wyatt (FLAK)



* Officers (Commanding and Executive) are responsible for communications between factions and event staff. Orders will be issued to factions via radio to officers on each team, officers are then responsible for passing orders/objectives onto faction players. Game play actions such as strategy, squads, maneuvers, etc are left up to faction discretion.

** Medics are responsible for healing 'wounded' friendly players. A medic may heal a wounded player by placing their hands on the 'wounded' individual for one minute. At that point the wounded player may resume game play and continue as normal. If the wounded player is hit while being hit or the medic is hit while a 'heal' is performed, the wounded player is considered dead and must return to his/her prospective re-spawn location.

*** All officers will receive complimentary passes to the next airsoft event being held at Hole in the Wall Paintball for their services with commanding a team. Please see staff at the conclusion of the event.

Roster Key:

[   ] - Additional team members attending with a signed up person.
(   ) - Home team, if applicable.
PRG - Pre-game camping.
PEG - Post Event Camping

9
Airsoft Events / Re: SCN: Operation: Icebox ~ 01/19/2019 @ HITW
« on: January 12, 2019, 05:16:58 PM »
Roster updated! Projected player attendance: 59

- Green Team (United States and Mexico): 27
- Tan Team (Russia, Japan, and Canada): 32

~ Looking for one medic on the tan side of things and additional players on the green team ~

Want to sign up for this event and be listed on the roster?

Please send us a message with: Your name, desired faction (Green or Tan), and the number of players attending.

Just a reminder to all participants. Please use the uniform color breakdown, this avoids everyone having to use armbands in the future.

If you have questions or may have been missed on the roster, feel free to send a message.

10
Airsoft Events / Re: SCN: Operation: Icebox ~ 01/19/2019 @ HITW
« on: January 11, 2019, 07:48:43 PM »
Roster updated! Projected player attendance: 58

- Green Team (United States and Mexico): 27
- Tan Team (Russia, Japan, and Canada): 31

~ Looking for two medics on the tan side of things! ~

Want to sign up for this event and be listed on the roster?

Please send us a message with: Your name, desired faction (Green or Tan), and the number of players attending.

Just a reminder to all participants. Please use the uniform color breakdown, this avoids everyone having to use armbands in the future.

If you have questions or may have been missed on the roster, feel free to send a message.

11
Airsoft Events / Re: SCN: Operation: Icebox ~ 01/19/2019 @ HITW
« on: January 09, 2019, 03:06:51 PM »
Roster updated! Projected player attendance: 54

- Green Team (United States and Mexico): 25
- Tan Team (Russia, Japan, and Canada): 29

~ Looking for two medics on the tan side of things! ~

Want to sign up for this event and be listed on the roster?

Please send us a message with: Your name, desired faction (Green or Tan), and the number of players attending.

Just a reminder to all participants. Please use the uniform color breakdown, this avoids everyone having to use armbands in the future.

If you have questions or may have been missed on the roster, feel free to send a message.

12
Airsoft Events / Re: SCN: Operation: Icebox ~ 01/19/2019 @ HITW
« on: January 08, 2019, 04:44:05 PM »
Roster updated! Projected player attendance: 50+

- Green Team (United States and Mexico): 24
- Tan Team (Russia, Japan, and Canada): 26

~ Looking for additional players and two medics on the tan side of things! ~

Want to sign up for this event and be listed on the roster?

Please send us a message with: Your name, desired faction (Green or Tan), and the number of players attending.

Just a reminder to all participants. Please use the uniform color breakdown, this avoids everyone having to use armbands in the future.

If you have questions or may have been missed on the roster, feel free to send a message.

13
Airsoft Events / Re: SCN: Operation: Icebox ~ 01/19/2019 @ HITW
« on: January 07, 2019, 10:27:10 PM »
Roster updated! Projected player attendance: 52+

- Green Team (United States and Mexico): 23
- Tan Team (Russia, Japan, and Canada): 29

~ Looking for additional players on the green team!
~ Looking for one additional medic on the tan side of things.

We will be serving homemade chili at lunch for $3.00 per bowl.

Want to sign up for this event and be listed on the roster?

Please send us a message with: Your name, desired faction (Green or Tan), and the number of players attending.

Just a reminder to all participants. Please use the uniform color breakdown, this avoids everyone having to use armbands in the future.

If you have questions or may have been missed on the roster, feel free to send a message.

14
Airsoft Events / Re: SCN: Operation: Icebox ~ 01/19/2019 @ HITW
« on: January 04, 2019, 12:24:33 AM »
Roster updated! Projected player attendance: 49+

- Green Team (United States and Mexico): 21
- Tan Team (Russia, Japan, and Canada): 28

~ Looking for additional players on the green team!
~ Looking for one additional medic on the tan side of things.

We will be serving homemade Venison chili at lunch for $3.00 per bowl.

Want to sign up for this event and be listed on the roster?

Please send us a message with: Your name, desired faction (Green or Tan), and the number of players attending.

Just a reminder to all participants. Please use the uniform color breakdown, this avoids everyone having to use armbands in the future.

If you have questions or may have been missed on the roster, feel free to send a message.

15
Walk-On/Open Play Airsoft (SW Michigan Rec. Game)
Sunday, January 6th, 2019

Open Play Airsoft ~ No Uniform Regulations
All Experience Levels Welcome ~ All Replica Types Welcome

All participants are asked to at least provide some notification of attendance, either by a Facebook message to our page or by posting on the Michigan Airsoft forums in the event thread. Without information, it is difficult for us as hosts to operate and host an event properly. Clicking the "Going" button on Facebook does not help us.

Hole in the Wall Paintball ~ 24262 66th Street, Bangor, Michigan 49013

Useful Links: {Field Waiver}, {To Bring Checklist}, {Driving Directions}, {Weather Conditions}

Ages: 14+
Participant Fee: $10.00 (Walk On, Cash Only! No Credit Card Sales On Site).

- Signature of parent or guardian required for minor participants.
- Walk on payment and registration only.
- Waivers will be available at game registration.

Game Times:

Registration/Chronograph Open: 10:00 AM.
Game Start: 10:00 AM.
Event End: 5:00 PM (Weather and Lighting Applicable).

* Registration and game times adjusted for longer daylight.
** Please be prompt or at least on time with arrivals, late arriving players delay the game and decrease play time.

Uniform Requirements:

No uniform regulations of any kind will be enforced for this game. Teams will be based on day of balancing by the use of base uniform colors, armbands, or player selected options.

Eye Protection Regulations:

- ANSI Z87.1 rated full seal eye protection only, no exceptions.
- ANSI rated, full seal goggles or shooting glasses are permitted.
- 'Full Seal' is defined as a foam band separating the lens of the goggle from the frame portion and the face of the user.
- Mesh goggles, lab safety goggles, safety glasses, etc will not be permitted under any circumstances.
- Lower face protection (Mesh Lowers, Mouth Guards, Etc) do not apply to this.

Ammunition-Weapon Regulations:

Handguns, Shotguns, Sub machine Guns, and Assault Rifles: 1,500 Rounds.
- All magazine (Low, Mid, or High Capacity) types allowed.

Support Weapons: 2,500 Rounds.
- All magazine (Low, Mid, High Capacity, Box, or Drum) types allowed.

Sniper Rifle and Designated Marksman: 500 Rounds.
- Low or Mid Capacity Magazines Only.

Rocket Launchers, Landmines, IED's, Etc: Undetermined (Normally Allowed).
- Prior field approval only.

Sound Grenades: Allowed.
- Kill Radius: 15 feet.

Smoke Grenades (Hot and Cold Burn): Allowed.
- Allowed with common sense use (if it's starting a fire, put it out).
- Don't ruin it for everyone else (lifetime bans will be issued for reckless use).

- Participants may leave the event at any point to retrieve additional quantities of ammunition, etc stored in other locations (staging area, vehicles, etc).

Engagement Limits:

1 - 350.0 FPS (0.01j - 1.07j) - Arms length engagement.
350.1  - 410.0 FPS (1.08j - 1.49j) - 20 foot engagement limit.
410.1 - 500.0 FPS (1.50j - 2.32j) - 50 foot engagement limit (Permanent Semi-Auto or Bolt Action Only).
500.1 - 550.1 FPS (2.33j - 2.69j) - Bolt action replicas only.
550 FPS+ (2.7j+) - Prohibited under all circumstances.

- Velocities will be measured using the weight of BB being used.
- All replicas will be issued 'chronograph' tags after being registered and measured. These must remain on the replica for the entire event.
*Participants are encouraged to remove all chronograph tags from previous events/games.

Bang Kills:

- No bang kills of any kind will be used for this event.

Knife/Bayonet/Touch Kills:

- Participants may opt to use a simple 'Touch Kill' to quietly disable an opponent. Players must say "Knife Kill" to the opposing party and physically touch the other.
- Participants may use a replica knife/bayonet to also conduct a kill using a physical touch.
- Do not jab, physically assault, or use undue amounts of force.
- Real-Steel knives and bayonets are prohibited under all circumstances.

Surrender Rules:

- Participants may opt to 'Surrender' to an engaging opponent at any point during the event. Players that choose to do so must return to their respective respawn location, if applicable to game type.

Barrel Bag/Barrel Plug Regulations:

- All participants must have a barrel bag or a muzzle plug on or in their replica when out of gameplay.
- Barrel bags are available at paintball registration for $7.00 each.

Zero Tolerance Policy:

The following infractions will result in immediate removal from field property and a permanent ban from field property. Law enforcement may be used if required to remove problematic players.

- Theft of field or company property.
- Vandalism or destruction of property.
- Assault of participants, visitors, or field staff.
- Repeated removal of eye protection.
- Unsportsmanlike like conduct.

General Field Information:

- HPA fills are available on site. $5.00 for all day air fills, up to 2,500 PSI.
- CO2 fills are available on site. 9 oz - $1.00, 12 oz - $2.00, 20 oz - $3.00 , 24 oz - $4.00.
- Power outlets are available on location.
- Live firearms (real steel) are not permitted on field property.
- Not responsible for items or belongings that are lost, stolen, or damaged.

What To Bring Checklist:

- Full-Seal Eye Protection [Required].
- Barrel Bag or Muzzle Plug [Required].
- Airsoft Replica, Sidearm, and Magazines. [Required].
- Batteries, Charging Unit, and BB's [Required].
- Red 'Kill' Rag [Required].
- Camouflage or Uniform [Required].

- Potable water. [Highly Recommended].
- Green gas, propane, CO2 Powerlets, and Silicone Oil. [Highly Recommended].
- Canteen / Hydration Pack [Highly Recommended].
- Radio and Charging Unit [Highly Recommended].
- Spare Batteries [Highly Recommended].
- Extra Dry Clothing (Shirt, Pants, Socks) [Highly Recommended].
- Extra Dry Footwear [Highly Recommended].

All participants are asked to at least provide some notification of attendance, either by a Facebook message to our page or by posting on the Michigan Airsoft forums in the event thread. Without information, it is difficult for us as hosts to operate and host an event properly. Clicking the "Going" button on Facebook does not help us.

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